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Jonathan_Blow's profile
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
@Jonathan_Blow

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Jonathan Blow

@Jonathan_Blow

Designer/Programmer of Braid and The Witness. President, Thekla, Inc. Partner in IndieFund. Currently working on good new things.

San Francisco
the-witness.net/news
Joined January 2010

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    1. Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 5
      Replying to @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord @Jonathan_Blow

      Live++ is pretty much also a linker that can link "partial" DLLs against any existing module, it just invokes an ordinary linker for producing a DLL and PDB, and possibly bringing in needed .objs from archives.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 5
      Replying to @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord @Jonathan_Blow

      So mold as a daemon would be *perfect* in that case.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5
      Replying to @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

      But I mean, this is just an insane amount of complexity for something that should be trivial.

      3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    4. Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 5
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @1st_C_Lord

      It could be trivial, but unfortunately isn't with the current tools we have. If every symbol access went through a PLT or GOT, hot-reloading would be much easier. Or were you thinking about something else? Would love to hear your take on that.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5
      Replying to @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

      Symbol lookup is just matching a name to a value. This is something we know how to make computers do very fast. Those symbols are a small amount of data, e.g. the symbol for a function is much smaller than the code in almost all cases, and requires no computation whereas the code

      1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
    6. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

      took a lot of computation to generate. Yet somehow the linkers are so slow and complicated. It is just a pile of garbage. The solution is not to make the pile of garbage bigger. Someone just has to be the adults in the room and see how absurd this all is.

      1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes
    7. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

      I am not against making tools to help alleviate the problems of the current regime, *but* I think it is critical that these tools be explicitly aiming to elide all the current garbage complexity as an end-goal. Otherwise we are just making the pile bigger.

      1 reply 1 retweet 9 likes
    8. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

      So when talking about the problems of the current tools, I think it is important not to give those tools respect they don't deserve. It's not like this problem happened despite everyone's best efforts. It happened because a bunch of people fell asleep and didn't care.

      1 reply 2 retweets 8 likes
    9. Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 5
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @1st_C_Lord

      I agree, but didn't quite understand what you're referring to when you say "The solution is not to make the pile of garbage bigger". mold is a completely new linker in 10KLOC that can link Firefox, Chrome, etc. in about ~1.5 seconds, approaching SSD speeds.

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. Joshua‏ @shwa_programs May 5
      Replying to @molecularmusing @Jonathan_Blow @1st_C_Lord

      The solution he's talking about is getting rid of linkers altogether

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 6
      Replying to @shwa_programs @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

      Or if one is going to have them, making those linkers stick around as daemons with state that will inevitably f up (as mold does, for seemingly no actual good reason) is one step more pile than having them be stateless as they are now.

      7:34 AM - 6 May 2021
      • 2 Likes
      • Altaotact Ivan Braidi
      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 6
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @shwa_programs and

          I am all in favor of making linkers faster, and I like that mold is doing that, but, when I read the README, a significant fraction the discussion of how to make it go fast looks bananas to me. I was probably more triggered by the mold daemonizing thing than anything else.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Andrew Haining ☭ ☸️ ☮️‏ @1st_C_Lord May 6
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @shwa_programs @molecularmusing

          I can think of ways of parallelising compilation without some form of linker, but I think it would end up more complex than what we have now, is there a specific direction you would advocate for?

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 6
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @shwa_programs @1st_C_Lord

          I agree regarding statefulness vs. statelessness in general, but I also think that there's a limit to what you can do when computing something from scratch *each and every time*. IMO, a lot of efficiency is left on the table because we do the same things over and over again.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 6
          Replying to @molecularmusing @Jonathan_Blow and

          I like to compare this to games which completely evaluate everything and the kitchen sink each and every frame vs. games making clever use of temporal coherency. But yes, the latter is more complex and introduces edge cases that you have to take care of.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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