Jonathan Blow on Twitter: "So when talking about the problems of the current tools, I think it is important not to give those tools respect they don't deserve. It's not like this problem happened despite everyone's best efforts. It happened because a bunch of people fell asleep and didn't care.… https://t.co/DMIVUrR1Cz"

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Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 4

Stefan Reinalter Retweeted Rui Ueyama

Imagine the kind of programmer productivity we could get if we could all use tools such as this. I'm imagining @Jonathan_Blow 's Jai as compiler, mold as linker, and Live++ in between. With a bit more help on the C++ side, you could have fully generic sub-second iteration times.https://twitter.com/rui314/status/1389537043521277956 …

Stefan Reinalter added,

Rui Ueyama @rui314

mold linker v0.1 has been released! https://github.com/rui314/mold/releases/tag/v0.1 …

5 replies 2 retweets 33 likes

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Andrew Haining ☭ ‏ @1st_C_Lord May 5

Replying to @molecularmusing @Jonathan_Blow

I was just thinking about this while waiting for unreal to recompile, would it be even possible to get live++ and mold to work together given mold doesn't do an incremental link, wouldn't that mean you'd have to fix up the entire executable?

1 reply 0 retweets 1 like

Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 5

Replying to @1st_C_Lord @Jonathan_Blow

Live++ doesn't need (or do) incremental links. Instead, it massages all changed .obj files so that they link even though there are unresolved symbols in it. The linker is used to produce the DLL and PDB. Live++ then links the DLL against existing symbols, patching relocations.

1 reply 0 retweets 1 like

Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 5

Replying to @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord @Jonathan_Blow

Live++ is pretty much also a linker that can link "partial" DLLs against any existing module, it just invokes an ordinary linker for producing a DLL and PDB, and possibly bringing in needed .objs from archives.

1 reply 0 retweets 1 like

Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 5

Replying to @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord @Jonathan_Blow

So mold as a daemon would be *perfect* in that case.

1 reply 0 retweets 1 like

Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5

Replying to @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

But I mean, this is just an insane amount of complexity for something that should be trivial.

3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes

Stefan Reinalter‏ @molecularmusing May 5

Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @1st_C_Lord

It could be trivial, but unfortunately isn't with the current tools we have. If every symbol access went through a PLT or GOT, hot-reloading would be much easier. Or were you thinking about something else? Would love to hear your take on that.

1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes

Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5

Replying to @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

Symbol lookup is just matching a name to a value. This is something we know how to make computers do very fast. Those symbols are a small amount of data, e.g. the symbol for a function is much smaller than the code in almost all cases, and requires no computation whereas the code

1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes

Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5

Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

took a lot of computation to generate. Yet somehow the linkers are so slow and complicated. It is just a pile of garbage. The solution is not to make the pile of garbage bigger. Someone just has to be the adults in the room and see how absurd this all is.

1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes

Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5

Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

I am not against making tools to help alleviate the problems of the current regime, *but* I think it is critical that these tools be explicitly aiming to elide all the current garbage complexity as an end-goal. Otherwise we are just making the pile bigger.

1 reply 1 retweet 9 likes

Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 5

Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @molecularmusing @1st_C_Lord

So when talking about the problems of the current tools, I think it is important not to give those tools respect they don't deserve. It's not like this problem happened despite everyone's best efforts. It happened because a bunch of people fell asleep and didn't care.

8:40 AM - 5 May 2021