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Jonathan_Blow's profile
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
@Jonathan_Blow

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Jonathan Blow

@Jonathan_Blow

Game designer of Braid and The Witness. Partner in IndieFund.

San Francisco
the-witness.net/news
Joined January 2010

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    1. Ivan Ivanov‏ @obiwanus Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @tab_vs_space @rustlang

      Jai's main objective is not the speed of compilation. From what you've mentioned, only optimization seems to be the main reason for slow compilation. Maybe, @Jonathan_Blow would be able to comment on the above himself?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @obiwanus @FelixFischer91 and

      We have type inference, traits, macros, etc. They are just designed so that they aren't slow. All this information is available on YouTube.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

      To this I have two questions: - What kind of macros? (C-style or Lisp style?) - How do you check for memory safety? Rust gives you ownership guarantees at compile time. Maybe that's what makes it much slower to check

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Ivan Ivanov‏ @obiwanus Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @Jonathan_Blow

      It's not Rust vs Jai. It's that languages don't have to take ages to compile, even when they provide you with high level features mentioned above. For more details on how Jai is implemented you can check Jon's channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/jblow888 

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @obiwanus @Jonathan_Blow

      I will watch it, but bear in mind that many more things make it slow to compile (among other things, memory safety intersected with aiming to be as fast as good C++). It's not that it's not a priority.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus

      Compilation speed is *clearly* not a high priority with Rust. Priorities are balanced against other priorities, and other ones came out way on top.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

      Well that's okay. Correctness and generated code performance are higher priorities.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus

      From what I have been told, correctness is not the priority -- "memory safety" is, even in the many cases where memory safety does not lead to correctness.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

      I think that correctness is definitely a priority. Have you seen Ralf Jung's working group research of the `unsafe` uses within the stdlib and the compiler? Unless we're talking about a different form of correctness. I'm mostly talking about avoiding UB and vulnerabilities.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus

      Then I think you are using the word "correctness" too loosely and charitably (as I think the entire Rust community does). Avoiding UB and vulnerabilities is good, but correctness means the program doesn't have bugs.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus

      And "avoiding UB" is not really helpful if avoiding means trading it off for things that are technically not UB, but are still bugs.

      11:38 AM - 26 Jun 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

          That sounds scary, but where does that happen? I can't think of an example atm.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Ivan Ivanov‏ @obiwanus Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @FelixFischer91 @Jonathan_Blow

          I think this is a good example of what Jon is talking about:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t1K66dMhWk …

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @obiwanus @FelixFischer91

          I got into a big discussion on Twitter after this with a relatively prominent member of the Rust community (since deleted since my tweets auto-delete) and he basically said, yeah, it is about memory safety, not about correctness per se. I forget who it was.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

          Hmm. That makes sense. Maybe what they're trying to say is that Rust is a stepping stone for a future where memory safety is solved and we can focus on other correctness issues that are currently even harder since we have to also deal with memory unsafety.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @FelixFischer91 @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

          And by stepping stone, I mean for a better language to be invented after the next 10-20 years

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. End of conversation

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