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Jonathan_Blow's profile
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
@Jonathan_Blow

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Jonathan Blow

@Jonathan_Blow

Game designer of Braid and The Witness. Partner in IndieFund.

San Francisco
the-witness.net/news
Joined January 2010

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    1. KJ‏ @tab_vs_space Jun 25
      • Report Tweet

      I've heard that the compilation time for @rustlang gets progressively long with more code. Is this true ? #Code #Programming

      7 replies 3 retweets 7 likes
    2. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 25
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @tab_vs_space @rustlang

      Yes, and that's also true for all compiled languages. What's really important is the rate at which that time grows. The design of Rust is such that the rates at which compilation time grows with ur project are low (in comparison with C++ for example).

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Ivan Ivanov‏ @obiwanus Jun 25
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @tab_vs_space @rustlang

      I don't suppose you've heard of jai?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 25
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @obiwanus @tab_vs_space @rustlang

      Not before your answer, but now I've read a bit on it. What about it? :)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Ivan Ivanov‏ @obiwanus Jun 26
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      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @tab_vs_space @rustlang

      Among other things, it is designed for very fast compilation. The guy behind it, Jonathan Blow, very seriously said he aims to hit a 1 million lines of code per second target. And in that time it does much more to help you than any C++ compiler does.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @obiwanus @tab_vs_space @rustlang

      Interesting. There is an area of language and compiler design which is centered in speed of compilation. There are features (like type inference and code optimization) which increase the compilation time, and usually are left out of such systems.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
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      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus and

      However, if your objective is mainly speed of compilation, there are things you will not be able to get. Things like checked memory safety, type inference, traits, macros, etc, are things that improve the user experience in other ways, but are at odds with speed of compilation.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
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      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus and

      Rust aims to be a tool that can be used to make efficient and maintainable systems, reusable components, and to be a very accessible and empowering tool in general. It can't optimize first and foremost for speed of compilation because it has to provide on those areas first.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus and

      Jon's language and Rust are very different tools. If you ask me, I'd guess the complexity of compiling Jai must be between O(n) and O(n log^k n). That's how fast you can get if you make it a top priority ^^ It's all about tradeoffs, at the end of the day :)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Ivan Ivanov‏ @obiwanus Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @FelixFischer91 @tab_vs_space @rustlang

      Jai's main objective is not the speed of compilation. From what you've mentioned, only optimization seems to be the main reason for slow compilation. Maybe, @Jonathan_Blow would be able to comment on the above himself?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @obiwanus @FelixFischer91 and

      We have type inference, traits, macros, etc. They are just designed so that they aren't slow. All this information is available on YouTube.

      6:51 AM - 26 Jun 2019
      • 2 Likes
      • Ivan Ivanov Ivan Braidi
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

          To this I have two questions: - What kind of macros? (C-style or Lisp style?) - How do you check for memory safety? Rust gives you ownership guarantees at compile time. Maybe that's what makes it much slower to check

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Ivan Ivanov‏ @obiwanus Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @FelixFischer91 @Jonathan_Blow

          It's not Rust vs Jai. It's that languages don't have to take ages to compile, even when they provide you with high level features mentioned above. For more details on how Jai is implemented you can check Jon's channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/jblow888 

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @obiwanus @Jonathan_Blow

          I will watch it, but bear in mind that many more things make it slow to compile (among other things, memory safety intersected with aiming to be as fast as good C++). It's not that it's not a priority.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus

          Compilation speed is *clearly* not a high priority with Rust. Priorities are balanced against other priorities, and other ones came out way on top.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

          Well that's okay. Correctness and generated code performance are higher priorities.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus

          From what I have been told, correctness is not the priority -- "memory safety" is, even in the many cases where memory safety does not lead to correctness.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Félix Fischer‏ @FelixFischer91 Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @obiwanus

          I think that correctness is definitely a priority. Have you seen Ralf Jung's working group research of the `unsafe` uses within the stdlib and the compiler? Unless we're talking about a different form of correctness. I'm mostly talking about avoiding UB and vulnerabilities.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 26
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @FelixFischer91 @obiwanus

          Then I think you are using the word "correctness" too loosely and charitably (as I think the entire Rust community does). Avoiding UB and vulnerabilities is good, but correctness means the program doesn't have bugs.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        10. 19 more replies

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