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Jonathan_Blow's profile
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
@Jonathan_Blow

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Jonathan Blow

@Jonathan_Blow

Game designer of Braid and The Witness. Partner in IndieFund.

San Francisco
the-witness.net/news
Joined January 2010

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    1. Amandine Coget‏ @LiaSae Jun 17
      • Report Tweet

      Amandine Coget Retweeted increpare

      *adds “kill all fans” to the Graphics Agenda* (As a rule: the sharper the triangle, the more likely it is to poke you in the butt. And the larger the triangle count meeting at a single vertex, the larger your problems)https://twitter.com/increpare/status/1140594003873808385?s=21 …

      Amandine Coget added,

      increpare @increpare
      I never knew that one of these was an unsafe way of triangulating meshes. Until it bit me in the ass via very mysterious UV seams. And I had been so proud of my sausage mesh generation code. -_- I just hope this won't kill the polycount too much! pic.twitter.com/3F5lOdiemO
      3 replies 7 retweets 27 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Amandine Coget‏ @LiaSae Jun 17
      • Report Tweet

      And that’s not me calling anyone a doof for not knowing. Us graphics coders are not the best at sharing knowledge in a friendly way outside our subfield.

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      Show this thread
    3. Amandine Coget‏ @LiaSae Jun 17
      • Report Tweet

      Amandine Coget Retweeted  💖 Chrissy Bee  💖 (TRANS RIGHTS  ❤)

      Yes! The left one has a pattern colloquially known as a “fan”, with many narrow triangles radiating from a single point. Fans are Bad.https://twitter.com/avalix/status/1140597905495080960?s=21 …

      Amandine Coget added,

       💖 Chrissy Bee  💖 (TRANS RIGHTS  ❤) @Avalix
      Replying to @LiaSae
      Just to be super clear as its not obvious from the quoted tweet, but its the left one thats the problematic one right?
      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      Show this thread
    4. Amandine Coget‏ @LiaSae Jun 17
      • Report Tweet

      Oh wait, but the right one is ALSO bad, because the edges overlap. It’s ALL BAD

      3 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
      Show this thread
    5. Amandine Coget‏ @LiaSae Jun 17
      • Report Tweet

      Generating good meshes is tricky. I’d expect CSG (constructive solid geometry) to have good resources on that, but TBH it all makes my head hurt. - Fans: bad - T-junctions: bad - Edge-to-edge: bad

      4 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
      Show this thread
    6. Sean Barrett‏ @nothings Jun 17
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      Replying to @LiaSae

      T-junctions are BAD. The only way I've encountered fans being bad on GPU is performance. If you're writing your own geometry code, then yes, sharp triangles are more likely to cause problems, but I would never have 'fans bad' as a rule of thumb like I do for t-juncs.

      2 replies 1 retweet 7 likes
    7. Sean Barrett‏ @nothings Jun 17
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @nothings @LiaSae

      And in some cases, like the OP, you have no real way to avoid fans without introducing extra vertices. (You can optimize it to have two fans instead of one, but that's all the non-colinear vertices you have to play with.)

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    8. Sean Barrett‏ @nothings Jun 17
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @nothings @LiaSae

      (Please note I am being very explicit in contradicting you as an invitation for you to tell me about stuff I don't know if there are problems I'm not aware of, and I should have phrased that differently to be clear I'm not ACTUALLY calling you wrong, just a bad habit.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Amandine Coget‏ @LiaSae Jun 17
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @nothings

      Clarification appreciated! You probably know more than me TBH :p Mostly fans seem like a great way to end up with death by triangle overdraw?

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Won Chun‏ @won3d Jun 17
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @LiaSae @nothings

      The problem with T-junctions are that triangles that have a common edge (but not common vertex positions) aren't guaranteed to yield watertight rasterization due to differences in grid snapping

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 17
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      Replying to @won3d @LiaSae @nothings

      Yeah ... T junctions are straight-up incorrect. They will cause actual visible rendering artifacts (which get even worse under e.g. global illumination). Compared to that, a triangle fan is no big deal. Rasterizers used to have problems with thin triangles like 20 years ago,

      6:55 AM - 17 Jun 2019
      • 2 Likes
      • Thatcher Ulrich Sean Barrett
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 17
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @won3d and

          but my understanding is that this has been solid now for a long time. Even if you are doing your own clipping or something, the kind of “thin triangle” that would cause problems would be much thinner than these.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Won Chun‏ @won3d Jun 17
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @LiaSae @nothings

          Yeah the downside with fans (or thin tris in general) is that you end up with overshading because of tile shading granularity. But maybe this is less of an issue now?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Tom Forsyth‏ @tom_forsyth Jun 17
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @won3d @Jonathan_Blow and

          This is still a significant efficiency problem. You can't shade smaller than a 2x2 block, and packing blocks from multiple triangles together in a single wavefront has a bunch of extra inefficiency.

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        5. Thatcher Ulrich‏ @ThatcherUlrich Jun 17
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @tom_forsyth @won3d and

          Round triangles are best triangles.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Tom Forsyth‏ @tom_forsyth Jun 17
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          Replying to @ThatcherUlrich @won3d and

          It would be interesting to have a fan primitive where three of the vertices are designated as the ones that cause shading (negative indices?). All the other verts just affect rasterisation. Then you could combine all the fragments together in PS waves.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        7. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jun 17
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @tom_forsyth @ThatcherUlrich and

          If you don't have vertex-interpolated values that you want to match up ... which most games would. It's just not worth the complexity.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Tom Forsyth‏ @tom_forsyth Jun 17
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @ThatcherUlrich and

          I said "interesting" not "practical" :-)

          0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        9. End of conversation

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