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@HideNotSlide

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Hide Not Slide

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Helping investors become smarter & more informed about exchanges.

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    1. Hide Not Slide‏ @HideNotSlide Mar 17

      Potentially stupid market structure question of the day: If PFOF were eliminated, wouldn't market makers be forced to give price improvement to win flow? If I pay $.50 for an order w/PFOF and $1 w/PI, if PFOF weren't an option I could still pay the $1 to win flow, right?

      4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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    2. Hide Not Slide‏ @HideNotSlide Mar 17

      Said differently, how is PFOF more than just a way for market makers to win flow at a lower cost than price improvement?

      4 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      Show this thread
    3. Chucktown Trader‏ @chucktowntrader Mar 17
      Replying to @HideNotSlide

      As detailed by Doug Cifu, MM are indifferent between PI and PFOF, they care about all in price. The brokers determine the split.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. Hide Not Slide‏ @HideNotSlide Mar 17
      Replying to @chucktowntrader

      If that's true, eliminating PFOF would a) potentially increase a MM's all-in price b) hurt brokers who can no longer accept PFOF c) benefit end users who are getting more PI Right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Chucktown Trader‏ @chucktowntrader Mar 17
      Replying to @HideNotSlide

      1) should stay the same. .25 in PFOF and .5 in PI should become .75 in PI 2) sure, they will need to get revenue elsewhere, like carried interest, lending, and potentially the end of free trading 3) maybe, they could have to pay to trade again.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Hide Not Slide‏ @HideNotSlide Mar 17
      Replying to @chucktowntrader

      Thanks, that's helpful. It seems like the puzzle comes down to two pieces: execution quality & commission rate. We might be at the lower bound of costs in total, but the mix towards one or the other might change over time.

      10:24 AM - 17 Mar 2021
      • 1 Retweet
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      • Chucktown Trader Flowdamentals Hide Not Slide
      2 replies 1 retweet 2 likes
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        2. Kevin Osborn‏ @kevinosborn0 Mar 17
          Replying to @see_jeff_tweet @HideNotSlide @chucktowntrader

          Does anyone have evidence that retail brokers don't get the same PFOF rate from each of the MMs they route to? If no, any evidence that MMs aren't competing for flow based on PI already?

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. End of conversation
        1. John Handel‏ @_John_Handel Mar 17
          Replying to @HideNotSlide @chucktowntrader

          This is a helpful thread. It seems like PFOF is a result of trying to capture the market of discount brokerages, rather than a necessity on the part of MM

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1. Chucktown Trader‏ @chucktowntrader Mar 17
          Replying to @HideNotSlide

          and externalities of PFOF, meaning how much does PFOF hurt execution quality for other participants, such as larger institutions such as pensions

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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