basically I don't believe that you can have a democracy without also having traditional liberal values - the two concepts are inseparable to the point of being the same thing.
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I agree and this is why 'the majority decides what may be said' is a problem. It might be democratic but it sure as hell isn't liberal.
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somewhat apocryphal - but everyone pretty much agrees with 'you cannot shout fire in a theatre' - Where speech is restrained is open to democratic tools because otherwise only the powerful get to decide upon what is restrained. the conflict between principle and practical.
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That isn't the expression of an idea so isn't covered under the principle of freedom of speech. We might have a fundamental disagreement where you think that protecting certain classes of people is more important than freedom of speech and I think it is not & cld well backfire.
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I think the disagreement is more esoteric than that - I don't believe that hate-speech laws are good, helpful or necessary either. I just believe that (even truly awful) mistakes are a part of the system that creates freedom and that those mistakes will eventually be corrected.
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I haven't said anything contrary to that last sentence tho.
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i'm not even sure that we are really disagreeing that much - i can't actually remember the last time I disagreed with one of your tweets or articles. My take away from this debate is that 'i seem to agree with you'. sorry if i've been argumentative or annoying.
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Not at all!
End of conversation
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has a functioning democracy ever existed for any length worthwhile length of time that did not have such liberal principles at its core?
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Not that I know of.
End of conversation
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I think the progressives have fought long and hard to smash "the law of the land" or "the common place", the traditions that binded people and. Even more, they made it taboo through the bloody PC. People behaved properly not only bcse of laws, but due to community pressure.
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2/2 Try saying that in Eastern Europe and they will show you the door unceremoniously. I bet in India is the same: go there, as a white person, and tell them how racist they are against black people (which they are, as per 3 articles I found, BBC, Times of India and another one).
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1/2 The laws might and should ensure equal rights for everybody, including freedom of speech. However, some societies have stricter unwritten rules/mores/customs etc that de facto prevent certain things to happen. In Canada, the narrative of the day is how awful white people are
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