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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
      Replying to @HPluckrose @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

      I get the argument she's trying to make. But this case wasn't dismissed because black women weren't able to claim discrimination, rather because there was no actual evidence of discrimination.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
      Replying to @doublespeak152 @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

      There was a way to claim discrimination as a black woman? Evidence of this was able to be submitted and not just for racism OR sexism? I admit. I don't know the law. Crenshaw was a lawyer tho. I hate intersectionality generally but she seemed fairly tight on gaps in the law.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
      Replying to @HPluckrose @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

      I think the confusion here is a conflation of "racism" and "race based discrimination". Those aren't the same things. Racism might be a motive for race based discrimination, but isn't necessary for race based discrimination to occur

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
      Replying to @doublespeak152 @HPluckrose and

      So if there's a rule that says "black women are fired first" it's both race based discrimination and sex based discrimination. Doesn't matter if the employer doesn't have a problem with black men.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
      Replying to @doublespeak152 @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

      But did the law allow for that? If all the black women were fired first, could a complaint of sexist or racist discrimination be made if there were plenty of white women and black men who weren't fired? I don't know and don't have time to read Crenshaw again now.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
      Replying to @HPluckrose @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

      If there was evidence that black women were targeted as a class, yes, it would be illegal discrimination even if the motives for it weren't racism because black men kept their job or sexism because white women kept their jobs. It's still race and sex based discrimination.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
      Replying to @doublespeak152 @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

      You read the Crenshaw thing and the rulings saying that cases couldn't be judged like this which was later overturned and now they can?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
      Replying to @HPluckrose @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

      Did I read the entire 31 page document you linked? No. I can tell you in the highlighted portion she has the facts of the case wrong. Black men were also laid off and were filing suit.pic.twitter.com/3CrPLU0UP4

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
      Replying to @doublespeak152 @HPluckrose and

      The court wanted to combine the cases but the plaintiffs refused because the claim that black women were being doubly discriminated against. That's what the court was responding to in the section she quotes

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
      Replying to @doublespeak152 @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

      Yes, I know. There wasn't a way to complain of that. Now there is. Is that a bad thing?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
      Replying to @HPluckrose @doublespeak152 and

      I'm going to leave it here. The article reported what Crenshaw did accurately. If you think this is itself is bad, think about whether you'd like to be able to complain if straight, white men get discriminated against by SocJus ppl when just one of those identities wouldn't be.

      5:53 PM - 9 May 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
          Replying to @HPluckrose @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

          I've literally been trying to explain for hours that it ISN'T the case that you can discriminate against a subset of a protected class by narrowing parameters so it's not "racism". Never once said "it's ok if ppl can discriminate against black women". Not once

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
          Replying to @doublespeak152 @HPluckrose and

          And if you haven't read what you linked in awhile, try doing so and getting through the first few sentences without believing there's an ideological motivation for misrepresenting what occurred in the GM case

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
          Replying to @doublespeak152 @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

          I'm more concerned about the ideology than the law cases which seemed quite a strong argument. I thought you might know more about the law changes but you keep talking about something else very abstractly as tho it wasn't something that actually happened & the rationale recorded.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
          Replying to @HPluckrose @doublespeak152 and

          If she actually reported it incorrectly. I'd like to know but I think someone would have said so in all these years because she has a lot of critics. She's not wrong to say all the black women were laid off because black men were too because both of those things that can be true.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Tom Quinn‏ @doublespeak152 May 9
          Replying to @HPluckrose @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

          My point here is that by omitting the fact that black men were also laid off, she's letting the reader believe black women had a substantive claim beyond simple race based discrimination

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
          Replying to @doublespeak152 @QuilletteM @xchrisgonz

          That's the claim, yes. I'm not sure it needs for no black men to have been laid off to be true. You're arguing it could well just have been racism & the black women were wrong to think it was a compound of racism and sexism?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 9
          Replying to @HPluckrose @doublespeak152 and

          It's possible that she had no grounds to think this & I can't be bothered to look into the reasoning they gave for this. I don't know that she was right in this case. We probably agree that she was right to say there must be a way to address compound cases?

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. End of conversation

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