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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
      Replying to @adamckolasinski

      What argument can make people think they should be moral if they don't care about morality? What can't be answered with 'Nah, I'm just going to look out for me?' Another 'is' is that people ARE moral. It is not me who is arguing for a 'should' (Ought). I am saying it is all 'is'

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Adam Kolasinski‏ @adamckolasinski Apr 16
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      I agree you can't make a logically coherent argument for morality over amorality based on empiricism alone! That's my point. But suppose we assume all people r moral. What if they r optimizing something different than you? Empiricism is insufficient for deciding what to optimize.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
      Replying to @adamckolasinski

      I don't make that claim. We are just talking past each other. People can be wrong or right about what they are optimising. Empiricism means we do not decide. There are right and wrong answers.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Adam Kolasinski‏ @adamckolasinski Apr 16
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      You say people can be right or wrong about what they optimize, but then you say emiricism means we can't decide. That would seem to suggest there is some non-empirical basis upon which they are right or wrong, which is my original point. What am I missing?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
      Replying to @adamckolasinski

      The point. People can be right or wrong about whether they are a product of evolution and this is not something they can decide. The truth of the matter is still determined by empirical means. Please don't ask me to go through this again. I'll only be saying the same things.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Adam Kolasinski‏ @adamckolasinski Apr 16
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      I think I get it now. People's evolved moral intuition determines what they optimize over. Accepting the solution to that optimization problem is therefore by definition what is best for them. Do I have that right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
      Replying to @adamckolasinski

      Not quite but closer. Our consistent aim for wellbeing and lack of suffering indicates human fundamental goals and determines the fundamentals of our morality because thjs is what our empathy, compassion & justice (moral intuitions) lead us to moralise over.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
      Replying to @HPluckrose @adamckolasinski

      Rewards are about wellbeing whether material or heavenly. Punishments about suffering whether material or hellish. All human societies and some nonhuman promote kindness, caring, honesty etc. We thrived as a species by looking after each other so this is how our morality works

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
      Replying to @HPluckrose @adamckolasinski

      But we can get things wrong. Love thy neighbour is consistent with this looking after each other. The Golden rule is too. But what if you beat up your neighbour coz he's not the same religion as you and your morality doesn't extend to him because you see him as bad?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
      Replying to @HPluckrose @adamckolasinski

      You've allowed something to get in the way of the golden rule and justified it by something which doesn't work by the golden rule of looking after each other. You didn't increase wellbeing and decrease suffering. You got it wrong

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
      Replying to @HPluckrose @adamckolasinski

      This is intuitive to me as a secular liberal humanist. Care/harm foundation and goodness coming from humanity. No dissonance. You will have the same intuitions but are likely to see them as coming from outside you. Jesus said love thy neighbour. But you feel this.

      7:20 PM - 16 Apr 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
          Replying to @HPluckrose @adamckolasinski

          You don't rationalise it. You don't have to stop & think whether you should beat me up coz I don't believe what you do and remember what Jesus said. You have no wish to hurt me & would help me if I needed it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
          Replying to @HPluckrose @adamckolasinski

          A fundamentalist (not necessarily religious) could justify beating me up but this is because something is getting in the way of their empathy for their fellow man. They are acting against their innate morality. They are getting it wrong.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
          Replying to @HPluckrose @adamckolasinski

          Why. Maybe they think I'm doing harm by saying gender differences exist and society is better off if I'm too scared to do that again. But is society better off? There's a right or wrong answer. It can be established empirically but might be complicated. In other cases more so

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 16
          Replying to @HPluckrose @adamckolasinski

          So we end up with a load of factors to measure but they are all 'is' if we have accepted the golden rule is what underlies human morality.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Adam Kolasinski‏ @adamckolasinski Apr 18
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          You've given lots of food for thought. I see one big problem with your system. You seem to be assuming that evolved moral intuition rests on one foundation: care/harm. Haidt & others find at least five, & people innately differ in how they weight them. 1/

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 18
          Replying to @adamckolasinski

          No, I don't. I go with Haidt on those five moral foundations but to to consider them all equally positive just because they exist is the naturalistic fallacy.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Adam Kolasinski‏ @adamckolasinski Apr 18
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          So how do you use empiricism alone to determine which are to be included in the objective function of your moral optimization problem and which are not?

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. End of conversation

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