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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
      Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23 @VirgilMSW

      It is not semantic to separate emotional, psychological and behavioural effects of a narrative from the factual truth or falsity of the claims within it. That is essential.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Darryl Richard‏ @darrylrichard23 Apr 15
      Replying to @HPluckrose @VirgilMSW

      I don't follow. In what way do stories make claims?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
      Replying to @darrylrichard23 @VirgilMSW

      ??? Consider the bible. Consider news stories. Consider propaganda stories and inspirational narratives. If they make us feel good or seem to have a profound meaning but are not established to be true factual accounts, we must say this.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Virgil‏ @VirgilMSW Apr 15
      Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23

      What would you say to what I have seen? That if people follow behaviors seen in hero myths, there is a positive correlation with wellbeing. What do we call these observations, it seems the word truth applies but in a different way then in speaking to facts.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
      Replying to @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

      You can say that people can experience positive benefits from following narratives which are not true. If evidenced, it is true that this happens. The narrative remains untrue. Perhaps someone is inspired by the bravery and honest of Harry Potter?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Virgil‏ @VirgilMSW Apr 15
      Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23

      That makes sense, it seems honestly that we are missing a word for pragmatic truths foundbin narratives. Or maybe I am just unaware of how to articulate this idea. Thanks for the responses making me think a lot.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
      Replying to @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

      We call it pragmatic notions of truth!

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Virgil‏ @VirgilMSW Apr 15
      Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23

      That phrase may have been what I was looking for. I have seen so many of these conversations be derailed because people can't get past agreeing on word use.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
      Replying to @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

      It's the concepts which need to be kept separate. What is evidenced and what is emotionally/morally resonant. The whole post-truth problem is about confusing these.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Virgil‏ @VirgilMSW Apr 15
      Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23

      I think I am following, it seems I the whole Harris Peterson debate got stuck because they wanted to use the same word to mean two different things.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
      Replying to @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

      Not really. They established they were using truth differently early on and tried to find common ground on the concepts. Still, no. Peterson favours pragmatics over facts. So do others but they do them differently to support different ends. Feminism is a main culprit.

      12:13 PM - 15 Apr 2018
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
          Replying to @HPluckrose @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

          My epistemology is based on what is established as true through evidence. We worked on meaningful narratives that bonded people for most of history. It didn't work well.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
          Replying to @HPluckrose @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

          I still like narratives. I'm a literature student not a scientist for that reason but this doesn't make the ones which are helpful to me true. It's important to recognise that.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Virgil‏ @VirgilMSW Apr 15
          Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23

          That is not how I heard it. I heard Harris telling Peterson that his truth was not truth, and Peterson saying it was a different/deeper truth.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
          Replying to @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

          Yes, he has a better truth than well... truth. That's what is worrying. Objective truth is something worth aiming for.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Virgil‏ @VirgilMSW Apr 15
          Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23

          Well it goes to the argument of can you cross small lox and ebloa. That could be a truth claim to be understood, but not something we should aim for.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
          Replying to @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

          But what tells us we don't want to breeding diseases? Isn't it an understanding of disease? It's not a mythic narrative.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Virgil‏ @VirgilMSW Apr 15
          Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23

          What in the scientific understand of disease would stop you from doing this? It seems the pragmatic wisdom would be setting the limit. Science would state there is truth to find.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
          Replying to @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

          Pragmatic, no, because pragmatic goals depend on what your end is. Science tells us what would happen if we did that. The likely effect on human life. Pragmatic ethics are fine as long as they are rooted in protecting all human life. What would ISIS' pragmatic goal look like?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Virgil‏ @VirgilMSW Apr 15
          Replying to @HPluckrose @darrylrichard23

          Oooo that is a good distinction I need to make and didn't realize was specific to me. When I speak of pragmatic ideas it is pragmatic in the sense it moves towards human well being, and then you get into what we'll being is.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 15
          Replying to @VirgilMSW @darrylrichard23

          Humanism, essentially. I share it.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        10. End of conversation

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