Being an atheist absolutely does not rule out being gullible & easily misled. This is shown by the number of atheists who take on irrational & unevidenced beliefs on the far-left, far-right, spiritual, postmodern, pseudoscientific & Jungian-archetype-mixed-with-bible-stories. https://twitter.com/scarce_sense/status/985448699084992518 …
We don't have to say that something has no value to say that it is not rational & evidence-based. Peterson says this explicitly. He calls it the affective (feelings) truth of the mythic world (narratives).
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I think my contention is the implication of saying something is irrational and lacks evidence. Usually it is implied there is no value and/or it is false. Or even that hyper rationality is preferable, which i am starting to disagree with.
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There can be lots of value in feelings and stories. That's why I devoted my academic career to studying the Christian narrative and the meaning it had for women historically. It's just different to truth established by evidence & reason & the problem arises when this is denied.
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I think you put it better in that tweet. It is a different truth and different evidence. Those words are just so loaded, saying something irrational is almost always an insult. But you are %100 right it is not the same.
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No, it's not truth and there is no evidence. Emotionally resonant narratives are important to us and they are how we consistently think about morality and psychology and emotion and relationships. But they are not true. Bible stories are not true. Jungian archetypes are not true.
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I talked about this at the Post-Truth Initiative at the University of Sydney. Society is a mess of conflicting narratives that people find meaningful - religious and secular, ideological, political, spiritual, whatever. It makes us feel good to inscribe ourselves into a narrative
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Whether it's 'Make America Great Again' or Social Justice narratives, Islamic narratives about a Caliphate or Christian redemption ones, nationalism, Marxism etc. We make metanarratives to provide meaning, purpose and morality but its essential to step outside them & face facts.
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How do we quantify the patterns in stories? I guess I ascribe to different types of truths. I can't explain how these narratives fit my experience as a clinician and how my young disabled clients are able to get them instantly in a way "facts" are unable to reach them.
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I've just had a thread about that. Evo psych is good here. We did not evolve to seek truth. We evolved to seek comfort, common understandings, tell stories. It's how we understand the world by default. Society functions better when we try to overcome it in seeking truth.
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Helen - I’d highly recommend spending some time with Peterson’s book Maps of Meaning. In the Sam Harris podcasts, his health was suffering and he failed to effectively articulate his claims about truth.
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His thesis in Maps of Meaning is that there are two modes of construing the world. The first is that the world is a place of things. The second is that the world is a forum for action. The former is the domain of science. The latter is the domain of arts.
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Yes, I know. This is where he is clearest about the 'affective reality of the mythic world' and how truth comes in narratives. Truth need not be objective for him. I've posted highlighted passages many times & am sick of arguing about it.
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I hadn’t realized you’ve read Maps of Meaning and posted on it before. Sorry. I’ll have to find a way to search your old posts. I actually care less about changing your beliefs than learning from them. With that I’ll definitely stop :-)
End of conversation
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