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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 13

      Helen Pluckrose Retweeted Richard Morgan

      I get this argument and support reasonable feminists who want to reclaim the term. However, I think, in non-patriarchal societies where legal equality has been achieved & where both men & women experience privileges & disadvantages, gender equality should be postfeminist.https://twitter.com/quellist1/status/984823095306473473 …

      Helen Pluckrose added,

      Richard Morgan @quellist1
      Replying to @HPluckrose
      My problem with this is that it's defeatist - in essence, you abandon the term to those who have weaponised it. And that's not a battle I want to lose, it's too important.
      7 replies 5 retweets 42 likes
    2. Richard Morgan‏ @quellist1 Apr 14
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      But with the - possible -exception of some Scandinavian countries, I’ve yet to see a society that could convincingly be described as non-patriarchal - and even if we do end up at that place, I think the danger of rollback is a constant headache. You need a rallying point.

      1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 14
      Replying to @quellist1

      https://areomagazine.com/2017/07/10/how-to-tell-if-youre-living-in-a-patriarchy-a-historical-perspective/ …

      4:15 AM - 14 Apr 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • Yan Raphael Anne McGlovin
      4 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Richard Morgan‏ @quellist1 Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          However far we come, I suspect we will always be fighting the battle for gender equity just as we will always be fighting the battle against xenophobia, because I think both these things are hardwired in. It is very early in the game to be singing post-feminist victory /end

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 14
          Replying to @quellist1

          I think we'll always be trying to work gender equality out. I think we're past the point where we need to focus on it from women's perspective

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Richard Morgan‏ @quellist1 Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          I don't think we *ever* needed to focus on it exclusively from women's perspective; IMHO, Feminism is and always has been (and should be) an issue of inclusivity. Reason why I don't want to surrender the term to divisive lunatics.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 14
          Replying to @quellist1

          I think it would do better to come at gender equality from a perspective which does not prioritise one gender, whether it's feminism or the MRM. Feminism simply does not address areas in which men are disadvantaged - eg genital integrity, criminal sentencing, victims of violence

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Richard Morgan‏ @quellist1 Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          Sure - in an ideal world, the drill would be - spot an injustice, act to address it, regardless of victim. But historically the trend in *general* progressive movements has always been to marginalise women's concerns as secondary to The Cause (whatever that Cause happens to be)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 14
          Replying to @quellist1

          I disagree.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Richard Morgan‏ @quellist1 Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          Can you (this is a genuine question) think of a revolutionary movement that made good on the promise of gender equity for its female component (when such a promise was even given)?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 14
          Replying to @quellist1

          ??? Revolutionary movements generally don't make things happen. Changes in society do. But can you think of any which prioritised men's issues over women's? The civil rights movement? Feminism? Gay Pride?

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 2 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Richard Morgan‏ @quellist1 Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          We may have a woman for PM, but we're scant inches away from having a man for PM who believes no woman should ever have the right to abort; and in the US, Roe v Wade is (and has been since its inception) under sustained attack. These, I think, are coal mine canaries. 2/

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 14
          Replying to @quellist1

          You realise abortion and sex work are opposed by way more women than men? This is a socially conservative or, in the latter case, feminist position, not a patriarchal one.

          2 replies 1 retweet 7 likes
        4. Lizzy‏ @lizlozlizloz Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose @quellist1

          I wouldn’t class anti sex work as always a socially conservative one. The most vocal Nordic Model advocates do it based on women’s rights rather than a dislike for sex.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 14
          Replying to @lizlozlizloz @quellist1

          "or, in the latter case, feminist"

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Lizzy‏ @lizlozlizloz Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose @quellist1

          I was meant to reply to this instead. Doh! I think it was the insinuation of it being anti-liberal I was questioning.pic.twitter.com/xQ3Ut2nyfH

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 14
          Replying to @lizlozlizloz @quellist1

          Well, you see that I acknowledged feminism in the other one. It doesn't tend to be the liberal feminists tho who oppose sex work. That tends to be the radical branch.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. End of conversation
        1. Richard Morgan‏ @quellist1 Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          I don't want to belittle how far we've come, and I've got no patience with the structural oppression mob - but human relations are built firmly on a foundation of human sexual relations that's as old as mammalian evolution and it is inhumanly brutal at heart 3/

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. Richard Morgan‏ @quellist1 Apr 14
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          All fair enough, but the one thing you haven't covered is bodily autonomy. Abortion on demand is still treated as a vexed moral issue in Britain and (extremely so) in the US, and so is sex work. Ie - women's control of their own bodies is conditional in a way men's is not. 1/

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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