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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12

    I am conflicted about a petition happening over here to keep abortion protesters at a distance from clinic doors. On the one hand, I support the right to protest & the free expression of views in public places. On the other, this gets close to forcing people to listen.

    7:24 AM - 12 Apr 2018
    • 27 Likes
    • Laced Up For Lucy Michael Smith Spider lover, in a platonic sense Vincent Morrone Author William Francis David Pasko_OCT KroganCharr
    24 replies 0 retweets 27 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12

        Also to harassment and intimidation of individuals who have had things shouted in their faces and been squirted with water. I supported the banning of Britain First from the entrances of certain mosques after they intimidated people going in and out.

        4 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
        Show this thread
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12

        People have the right not to go to abortion clinics and mosques, of course, and can avoid protests this way, but this verges on intimidating people out of exercising their freedoms, reproductive and religious.

        2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
        Show this thread
      4. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12

        Obviously, protesters who exhibit threatening behaviour can be arrested but I'm inclined to think that keeping them just far enough away not to get in people's faces isn't a terrible idea.

        3 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
        Show this thread
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Helen Dale‏Verified account @_HelenDale Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        The problem with this is it's Speech v Association and if you balance rights (UK) rather than rank them (US) no-one will ever win. All you can do is assess who's being the biggest dick & legislate accordingly. I gather some of the protesters were being dickish.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12
        Replying to @_HelenDale

        I see it as the difference between having the right to speak and having the right to force other people to hear you speak.

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      4. Helen Dale‏Verified account @_HelenDale Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Yes, a classic speech v association conflict, and very hard to sort out fairly.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12
        Replying to @_HelenDale

        Does association relate to the right to make other people listen to you? I think that is key here.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      6. Helen Dale‏Verified account @_HelenDale Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Association refers to the ability to choose one’s associates, so - of necessity - includes the right to say ‘I choose [not] to listen to you’ or ‘I choose to spend time in [x] company but not [y] company.’

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12
        Replying to @_HelenDale

        I see.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      8. Helen Dale‏Verified account @_HelenDale Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        They’re both negative rights, too, in the formulation popularised by Isaiah Berlin (traditionally, negative rights have primacy in any legal rights scheme). ECHR jurisprudence tends to balance them, SCOTUS jurisprudence ranks them (so, in the US, speech wins).

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      9. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12
        Replying to @_HelenDale

        It's the kind of thing that leads to retaliation. You have the right to yell at me when I'm trying to have a medical procedure? OK, I'll come and yell at you when you're trying to enter your place of worship. It mostly relies on people not being complete arseholes.

        1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      10. 3 more replies
      1. New conversation
      2. Yan Raphael‏ @KvalHdura Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        If that's the case, pretty much any targeted protest suffers from that problem. I think it's fine when on public venues, but stalking anyone in private areas is going too far.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Apr 12
        Replying to @KvalHdura

        Our hospitals and clinics are public tho.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Yan Raphael‏ @KvalHdura Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Exactly. So protesting there is fine. In fact protesting private owned hospitals is fine too. By saying private areas I didn't mean in the economical sense, instead I was talking about going to someone's home or something.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. mirax‏ @miraxpath Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        It's beyond protest and crosses the line into intimidation often doesnt it? Screaming into women's faces, taking photos of them?

        0 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
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      1. KroganCharr‏ @KroganCharr Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I would be in favor of that petition. Of course abortion protests must be allowed to happen in public places, but they shouldn't be allowed to harass clinic goers. That's why keeping them at a distance at least during opening hours is sensible.

        0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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      1.  🎃Freedom-of-Screech 🦉‏ @ElleWest26 Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I feel like we’re losing a lot of our freedoms to express ourselves because of small groups of people who abuse these freedoms. 🙅🏻😥

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. Sally Griffin‏ @jackylification Apr 12
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Hmmm, it’s a tough one but I might have to side with the petition, they have a right to protest of course but do they have a right to scream at people or be very close to them in an aggressive manner?

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Sally Griffin‏ @jackylification Apr 12
        Replying to @jackylification @HPluckrose

        And if a distance was agreed, should that distance be applied to all targeted protest eg protests outside restaurants that serve meat, protesters blocking doors or yelling at people going to speaker events etc?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. M Hillman‏ @_M_Hillman Apr 13
        Replying to @jackylification @HPluckrose

        Blocking doors is definite no in my opinion. The rest is a difficult question.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      5. Sally Griffin‏ @jackylification Apr 13
        Replying to @_M_Hillman @HPluckrose

        I see it quite often, or leaning into people’s faces screaming slogans as they try to go into a restaurant 😕 But yes, it is a difficult question. Free speech should be championed

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. End of conversation

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