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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4

      Helen Pluckrose Retweeted Kareem Sabri

      I think we do provided we make coercion illegal and prosecute properly. "Let's make X illegal so no-one can feel pressured into X' is generally illiberal.https://twitter.com/kareem_sabri/status/960176316208185345 …

      Helen Pluckrose added,

      Kareem Sabri @kareem_sabri
      Replying to @HPluckrose
      It’s not clear to me liberals have an obligation to tolerate illiberal practices (religions) unless they’re damn sure the participants can leave freely, are not facing undue pressure, whether legal, social, or familial, to participate etc.
      2 replies 2 retweets 9 likes
    2. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri Feb 4
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      Provided, as I said, there’s reason to believe it’s members aren’t given real choice to participate or not. The army is illiberal but I’m not critical of those who sign up voluntarily. I am of those who sign up because they lack other options etc. /2

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
      Replying to @kareem_sabri

      Does this mean you are anti sex work?

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri Feb 4
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      Good q. I’m not anti any particular job, certainly some women choose to do and enjoy sex work. I’m anti conditions that cause a human to have no options but that job. It may be necessary, but I think it’s a social problem. Liberalism requires the conditions to make choices, no?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
      Replying to @kareem_sabri

      To a certain extent. People certainly have to be able to choose from the options that are there. I'm not sure liberalism requires us to make other options ppl will enjoy & there will always be unpleasant jobs that need doing.

      9:31 AM - 4 Feb 2018
      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri Feb 4
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          I’m not sure either. I don’t think it’s solvable, and disparity in options will always be reality. But we can recognize an oppressive form of lack of options (poverty etc.) that undermines liberalism and rectify it with a social safety net. Equality of opportunity is the aim, no?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
          Replying to @kareem_sabri

          Well, yes, this is a different matter.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri Feb 4
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          Seems related to the sex work question, but maybe I misunderstood where you were going with that.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
          Replying to @kareem_sabri

          It has gone way off hijabs, hasn't it? Sex work and hijabs are often raised together or separately as things that should be banned to ensure that no-one is coerced into them.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri Feb 4
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          Got it. I wouldn’t ban either, and I don’t think they’re all that similar. One is economic and other is cultural. Hence we got into poverty, which drives sex work at bottom end (or drugs). Hijab’s circumstances of coercion very different. /1

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri Feb 4
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          It seems a liberalism that is for choice in the abstract but ignores the circumstances in which one makes choices is rather ineffectual. Taken to its extreme it’s libertarianism, which I think would be pretty miserable in practice.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
          Replying to @kareem_sabri

          It's just a different thing.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri Feb 4
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          I don’t think we have to provide alternative enjoyable job options, but there should be a path out of the circumstances the necessitate that job. Ideally without too much suffering on the way out. Poverty shouldn’t be a trap you must be born and die in, for example.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
          Replying to @kareem_sabri

          I don't think we disagree at all here.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri Feb 4
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          I don’t either

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. End of conversation

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