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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4

    Helen Pluckrose Retweeted Michael A. Lowry

    It is difficult because it seems a line does need to be drawn somewhere between the burqa and public naked sex & that will always be, to some extent, arbitrary. There is no factual line. This genuinely is a social construct. We have to argue for where we think it should be & whyhttps://twitter.com/mlowry/status/960119315365326848 …

    Helen Pluckrose added,

    Michael A. Lowry @mlowry
    Replying to @HPluckrose
    Modesty codes are fascinating. Millions criticize other cultures’ modesty codes without realizing that they unquestioningly take their own culture’s modest code for granted and assume it is the one true & correct way to behave.
    4:00 AM - 4 Feb 2018
    • 5 Retweets
    • 37 Likes
    • Jay Joseph Duckworth Amin Abdollahzadeh Adam Antoszek-Rallo Randy Treibel KikiP 🎃 Cerendipity Emils. AtticusOz Barry Purcell
    9 replies 5 retweets 37 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Paul Verity‏ @PaulieVerity Feb 4
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        As I think about it a bit more, why does there need to be line drawn? If we believe in free speech, then surely that entails free dress as well. how does it not? If free speech is a human right, then surely free dress is too. They are both forms of freedom of expression.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
        Replying to @PaulieVerity

        It can't be rationalised. It's a disgust response and it's probably not going away. We're a long way from people being happy to see someone masturbating on the bus when they're taking their kids to school even if they did so hygienically.

        2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. Paul Verity‏ @PaulieVerity Feb 4
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        ok so free dress to you is a man masturbating on a school bus. Pretty sure that most people wouldn't do that, because of morals etc So if we cant trust people to choose their own dress, then forcing women to dress modestly is ok? That really is the end of your argument here.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
        Replying to @PaulieVerity

        That was my point in the first place! That there needs to be some line between burqas and public naked sex and that wherever it is will always be somewhat arbitrary. It genuinely is a social construct and we need to argue for where that is.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. Paul Verity‏ @PaulieVerity Feb 4
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Nudity & public naked sex aren't the same thing Not being clothed is not the same thing as being available for sex. They are two very different things and I"m surprised you are conflating the two. What we wear & what we say should be free, providing it doesnt cause harm to others

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
        Replying to @PaulieVerity

        The scale is 'modesty' in relation to concepts of sexual appropriateness.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      8. Paul Verity‏ @PaulieVerity Feb 4
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Is a naked human immodest or sexual? Or is it just what it is? A naked human like we all are? Modesty is a judgement and I'm a bit sad that you have decided to judge as to what is modest and what is not? Who gave you that right to decide what is modest?

        3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      9. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Feb 4
        Replying to @PaulieVerity

        It was you who said 'No public sex because people have morals', not me. Your line is obviously where sexuality is concerned. OK, mine probably is too. But this is still largely arbitrary. Sex is natural. The other animals don't worry. Can't rationalise it.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      10. 1 more reply
      1. Mel Liflora‏ @melliflora Feb 4
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        pic.twitter.com/dPGhpdWd4I

        0 replies 2 retweets 0 likes
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      1. Coffee is for closers‏ @MichaelFoster26 Feb 4
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I saw legalize public naked sex! I can finally cancel my pornhub subscription and spend more time out of the house

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. Pay Tree Arch Is Back, With a Longer Name Than Bef‏ @paytreearch Feb 4
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Stop trying to keep me from my God-given right to public naked sex, Helen! Get your laws off my body!

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. New conversation
      2. Michael A. Lowry‏ @mlowry Feb 4
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Modesty behaviors are not necessarily entirely arbitrary aspects of culture. Chimpanzees and other primates exhibit some proto-modesty behaviors. But the particular manifestation is certainly arbitrary. Hard to know what’s best. Hard to change established cultures too.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Michael A. Lowry‏ @mlowry Feb 4
        Replying to @mlowry @HPluckrose

        Individual liberty is often in conflict with social stability. I’ve noticed that when cultures with very different modesty codes come in contact, the more conservative ones tend to be given deference. Few get offended by too much modesty.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Paul Verity‏ @PaulieVerity Feb 4
        Replying to @mlowry @HPluckrose

        If that were true, then why was there the sexual liberation of the 60's that led to a much more open display of the human body up until the 90's than we have today? But an interesting conversation on why an uncovered person is immodest in the first place?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Michael A. Lowry‏ @mlowry Feb 4
        Replying to @PaulieVerity @HPluckrose

        The sexual revolution was a change driven from within the culture; and even in this case, the more conservative standards reasserted themselves a couple of decades later.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. Paul Verity‏ @PaulieVerity Feb 4
        Replying to @mlowry @HPluckrose

        They did, I agree. But how did it happen? We were heading towards a libertarian hands off, clothes off future and then it suddenly stopped. I'm at a loss to explain this new modesty in public attire when at the same time porn becomes 35% of internet downloads. This is not healthy

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. Paul Verity‏ @PaulieVerity Feb 4
        Replying to @PaulieVerity @mlowry @HPluckrose

        It was only a couple of years ago that we had the #freethenipple campaign Where is that now? I doubt anyone can ever remember that it ever existed or want to be associated with it

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      8. Michael A. Lowry‏ @mlowry Feb 5
        Replying to @PaulieVerity @HPluckrose

        I suspect these causes: 1. a resurgence of the Dworkin-MacKinnon flavor of Puritanical & authoritarian feminism; 2. privacy concerns prompted by the the combination of ubiquitous cameras & the internet; 3. modesty/virtue signaling among women as a form of intrasexual competition.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      9. 1 more reply

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