Yes, quite. I think this is different subject though.
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Replying to @HPluckrose
The reference to an earlier era is what I was referring to, Helen. It seems a major point in her article.
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Replying to @ireneogrizek
Yes. I'm not criticising that tho. I'm criticising the idea that because premarital sex is normal, women feel they have to explain turning down offers of it. I don't think they do. Consent is much bigger now.
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Replying to @HPluckrose
Disagree there. I hear young women grappling with the "turning down" part a lot. The perceived shortage of options is a problem. Young women struggle to say no. It's bizarre, but reflects a larger movement not to teach them, IMO, which is ideological: men should just change.
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Replying to @ireneogrizek
They can deal with it. Learning to say 'no' to things we don't want to do is important. This article argues they shouldn't be taught but that men should just assume they don't want to too when it says that was the case when the default was 'no.'
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Replying to @HPluckrose
I think she's being old-fashioned, yes. Having no as a default isn't possible or desirable. But the idea illustrates the how difficulties around saying no have emerged as a result. I really do hear young women struggling with this. There are other expectations in the mix too.
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Replying to @ireneogrizek
But we do we worry so much more about this than other social interactions women feel obliged to carry out? I just find it so interesting it was described as the same as having to do a lunch you don't want but no solutions to this were suggested.
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Replying to @HPluckrose
We're slightly at cross purposes here. My final argument would be to advocate for better informed discussions around prevention, but they have been derogated beyond having. Social expectations have become heavier too. What if he won't like me?
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Replying to @ireneogrizek
Yeah, I think women have to take that risk tho. I don't like the idea that they shouldn't be expected to. Social norms should just change so they don't have to make difficult choices around sexuality.
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Replying to @HPluckrose
Agreed. But a multi-pronged approach is better than demanding change from just one gender. Relationships are systems and all players have a role. Better communication skills around consent and better self-knowledge key, esp. for young women.
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I agree. That would be my position and my problem with both that article and the 'teach men not to rape/harass/pressure'' approach.
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Replying to @HPluckrose
Yes. It's provocative for the ideas it raises, but is hugely impractical, as is the latter part of your sentence there. The article did actually make me feel nostalgic when I first read it, but of course reality set in. It's all about adjustments.
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Replying to @ireneogrizek @HPluckrose
I straddled two very different eras. I grew up with the no default and yet struggled with the yes default myself as it was coming into being. Going back to no is inconceivable, but what we've got is something of a mess too. The Ansari debacle is common.
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