Yes, quite. I think this is different subject though.
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Replying to @HPluckrose
The reference to an earlier era is what I was referring to, Helen. It seems a major point in her article.
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Replying to @ireneogrizek
Yes. I'm not criticising that tho. I'm criticising the idea that because premarital sex is normal, women feel they have to explain turning down offers of it. I don't think they do. Consent is much bigger now.
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Replying to @HPluckrose
Disagree there. I hear young women grappling with the "turning down" part a lot. The perceived shortage of options is a problem. Young women struggle to say no. It's bizarre, but reflects a larger movement not to teach them, IMO, which is ideological: men should just change.
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Replying to @ireneogrizek
They can deal with it. Learning to say 'no' to things we don't want to do is important. This article argues they shouldn't be taught but that men should just assume they don't want to too when it says that was the case when the default was 'no.'
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Replying to @HPluckrose
I think she's being old-fashioned, yes. Having no as a default isn't possible or desirable. But the idea illustrates the how difficulties around saying no have emerged as a result. I really do hear young women struggling with this. There are other expectations in the mix too.
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Replying to @ireneogrizek
But we do we worry so much more about this than other social interactions women feel obliged to carry out? I just find it so interesting it was described as the same as having to do a lunch you don't want but no solutions to this were suggested.
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Replying to @HPluckrose @ireneogrizek
I'd have much preferred to have sex with a man I didn't want to have sex with to having lunch with a woman I didn't want to have lunch with. It tends to be over faster and it's much easier to feign interest in sex to a man's satisfaction than in vapid conversation to a woman's.
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Replying to @HPluckrose @ireneogrizek
I know this is counterintuitive to many people, so much so that the writer of that piece didn't even feel the need to explain how they were different or acknowledge that women have always felt the need to do unwanted social interactions. More agency and assertiveness solves all.
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Replying to @HPluckrose
Agreed. I wish we would just talk about that more than "he shouldn't do that." Not that we shouldn't have the latter convo, but it could also be balanced by a discussion around, 'yes, he shouldn't do that, but you have choices too." And, "don't worry if he doesn't like you."
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Agreed. But I read the article as advocating 'he shouldn't do that' in the sense of 'change societal norms so he doesn't' rather than 'You have choices too. Be more confident in them.'
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