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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 16

      Helen Pluckrose Retweeted

      Well, no. Then you'd have to keep getting married and divorced unless you only wanted to have sex with one person for your entire life. I think most women would prefer unwanted advances that having that expectation on them. You know, because of the wanted ones. https://twitter.com/YeyoZa/status/953266858337144832 …

      Helen Pluckrose added,

      This Tweet is unavailable.
      11 replies 3 retweets 32 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      Perhaps I am a throw-back, but I remember learning strategies to protect myself from assault--be overtly aggressive, urinate in your clothes, stomp on a man's foot, near the ankle, etc. /4

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
      Replying to @ireneogrizek

      Yes, quite. I think this is different subject though.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      The reference to an earlier era is what I was referring to, Helen. It seems a major point in her article.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
      Replying to @ireneogrizek

      Yes. I'm not criticising that tho. I'm criticising the idea that because premarital sex is normal, women feel they have to explain turning down offers of it. I don't think they do. Consent is much bigger now.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      Disagree there. I hear young women grappling with the "turning down" part a lot. The perceived shortage of options is a problem. Young women struggle to say no. It's bizarre, but reflects a larger movement not to teach them, IMO, which is ideological: men should just change.

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
      Replying to @ireneogrizek

      They can deal with it. Learning to say 'no' to things we don't want to do is important. This article argues they shouldn't be taught but that men should just assume they don't want to too when it says that was the case when the default was 'no.'

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
      Replying to @HPluckrose

      I think she's being old-fashioned, yes. Having no as a default isn't possible or desirable. But the idea illustrates the how difficulties around saying no have emerged as a result. I really do hear young women struggling with this. There are other expectations in the mix too.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
      Replying to @ireneogrizek

      But we do we worry so much more about this than other social interactions women feel obliged to carry out? I just find it so interesting it was described as the same as having to do a lunch you don't want but no solutions to this were suggested.

      6:26 AM - 17 Jan 2018
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
          Replying to @HPluckrose @ireneogrizek

          I'd have much preferred to have sex with a man I didn't want to have sex with to having lunch with a woman I didn't want to have lunch with. It tends to be over faster and it's much easier to feign interest in sex to a man's satisfaction than in vapid conversation to a woman's.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
          Replying to @HPluckrose @ireneogrizek

          I know this is counterintuitive to many people, so much so that the writer of that piece didn't even feel the need to explain how they were different or acknowledge that women have always felt the need to do unwanted social interactions. More agency and assertiveness solves all.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          Agreed. I wish we would just talk about that more than "he shouldn't do that." Not that we shouldn't have the latter convo, but it could also be balanced by a discussion around, 'yes, he shouldn't do that, but you have choices too." And, "don't worry if he doesn't like you."

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
          Replying to @ireneogrizek

          Agreed. But I read the article as advocating 'he shouldn't do that' in the sense of 'change societal norms so he doesn't' rather than 'You have choices too. Be more confident in them.'

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          We're slightly at cross purposes here. My final argument would be to advocate for better informed discussions around prevention, but they have been derogated beyond having. Social expectations have become heavier too. What if he won't like me?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
          Replying to @ireneogrizek

          Yeah, I think women have to take that risk tho. I don't like the idea that they shouldn't be expected to. Social norms should just change so they don't have to make difficult choices around sexuality.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          Agreed. But a multi-pronged approach is better than demanding change from just one gender. Relationships are systems and all players have a role. Better communication skills around consent and better self-knowledge key, esp. for young women.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 17
          Replying to @ireneogrizek

          I agree. That would be my position and my problem with both that article and the 'teach men not to rape/harass/pressure'' approach.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
          Replying to @HPluckrose

          Yes. It's provocative for the ideas it raises, but is hugely impractical, as is the latter part of your sentence there. The article did actually make me feel nostalgic when I first read it, but of course reality set in. It's all about adjustments.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Irene Ogrizek‏ @ireneogrizek Jan 17
          Replying to @ireneogrizek @HPluckrose

          I straddled two very different eras. I grew up with the no default and yet struggled with the yes default myself as it was coming into being. Going back to no is inconceivable, but what we've got is something of a mess too. The Ansari debacle is common.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. End of conversation

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