LOL. no. Women all over the western world are saying no to both lunch and sex quite unexceptionally. It's accepted as quite normal not to want to socialise with all women or have sex with all men.pic.twitter.com/B5vCjK1Cq3
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LOL. no. Women all over the western world are saying no to both lunch and sex quite unexceptionally. It's accepted as quite normal not to want to socialise with all women or have sex with all men.pic.twitter.com/B5vCjK1Cq3
This sounds more like a certain take on social networking. Which is fine if she's weighed up pros & cons & decided. However, I'm sure there are girls she doesn't have lunch with and men she doesn't have sex with. It will just be those she wants connections with.
And it's a bit presumptuous to think the sex obligation needs fixing by restoring norms of no premarital sex if she sees it as the same as a boring lunch. No suggestion of setting up norms of no lunch to save her from making that decision to avoid awkwardness.
Whilst it is probably true that premarital sex becoming unexceptional leads to women who don't want to have it finding themselves asked to explain it more than when it was assumed good girls didn't, the solution is not to return to this understanding of morality.
Women do have agency. They can explain things. Or decline to explain things and just state wishes. If this means that they lose a connection, it probably wasn't worth keeping. If they think sex is a fair enough price to pay for keeping it, they can decide that too.
Perhaps I am a throw-back, but I remember learning strategies to protect myself from assault--be overtly aggressive, urinate in your clothes, stomp on a man's foot, near the ankle, etc. /4
Yes, quite. I think this is different subject though.
The reference to an earlier era is what I was referring to, Helen. It seems a major point in her article.
Yes. I'm not criticising that tho. I'm criticising the idea that because premarital sex is normal, women feel they have to explain turning down offers of it. I don't think they do. Consent is much bigger now.
It's harder to say 'No, because I don't believe in premarital sex' now but still easy to say 'No, I don't want to.' To a casual offer. In a relationship, it could be harder. But people have to take responsibility for that not being acceptable to most ppl & find like-minded ppl.
Okay. I think we're agreeing more than I thought. The article for me held several intriguing ideas.
The trick would be to recalibrate from within, which is not a popular idea right now, i.e,.just bc we have the freedom to have sex, doesn't mean we need to choose it. That idea isn't out there as clearly as it could be./2
I don't know about that. I'm not sure there has ever been a time when women were more free to choose not to have sex and when consent was so much the ethical standard.
I'm around young people much of the time. I believe there are engineered gaps in knowledge re: these issues. Less emphasis on self-protection and more on "He just shouldn't do that." It's true men could act better, but ignoring our capacity to control things isn't good either.
I agree with that argument completely and have argued it myself. If the article was about it being a problem that there used to be a norm around teaching women to defend themselves and now there isn't, I'd agree with it.
The lunch comparison doesn't work for me. Apples and oranges. That said, I remember when no was the default and it's true that it made things easier. It also comes with unwanted baggage./1
I think it is for most people but not for that woman and not for me. She clearly saw both as something that could be a pleasure or a form of social networking which can be tedious. That's a valid take.
Having lunch when you don’t want to doesn’t have the possibility of leading to things like unwanted pregnancies & STDs. That’s why the comparison doesn’t work for me.
But that's a consequence of sex whether wanted or not. Not talking about rape. Talking about social networking or being liked rather than desire as motivation.
I think supporting strategies for choosing better should also be part of the feminist ideology, but isn't bc it seems too conservative. It's a shame. It's creating more pain + discomfort. All preventable. /3
But then we might disagree on what criteria that choice should be made. I found the 'lunch' parallel interesting because I notice no-one wants to change norms of society so women don't have to feel awkward saying 'no' to that.
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