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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Jan 10
      Replying to @HPluckrose @JaredThomasW @harari_yuval

      I'm not too interested in economics but I find that our lack of libertarian free will affects very little practically. If you can explain some reasons why you think it might represent a threat to liberalism, I can respond to those, though.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. Jared‏ @JaredThomasW Jan 10
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @HPluckrose @harari_yuval

      If liberalism relies on us feeling like we have free will, even though we don’t, and by paying attention to our thoughts we can observe that we don’t even have the feeling, why go on pretending that we do? Is it that it’s just the best system of ethics available to us at present?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Jan 10
      Replying to @JaredThomasW @HPluckrose @harari_yuval

      What are the reasons you feel liberalism relies on us feeling like we have libertarian free will?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Jared‏ @JaredThomasW Jan 10
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @HPluckrose @harari_yuval

      I’m not sure that it does and I think there’s a chance I’m confusing modern and classical liberalism here. If not though, I’m curious what the ‘freedom’ in liberal ideals such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion and free markets means.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Jan 10
      Replying to @JaredThomasW @HPluckrose @harari_yuval

      Freedom of speech, press, religion, etc. are about a lack of real consequences for or prohibitions against these things. These real consequences and prohibitions exist regardless of the status of libertarian free will.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Jan 10
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @JaredThomasW and

      I think you might be conflating libertarian free will with freedom in general. People have various degrees of actual freedom. Libertarian free will is a deeper type of freedom. It's the idea that people could have done otherwise; that their choices are free from determinism.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Jared‏ @JaredThomasW Jan 10
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @HPluckrose @harari_yuval

      Yes I think I may be too. Could we say then that even though I am not truly ‘free’ to choose how I vote, I feel better having had the feeling that I was free to choose how to vote and so we should continue on as such?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Jan 10
      Replying to @JaredThomasW @HPluckrose @harari_yuval

      When you say "...I am not truly 'free' to choose how I vote," do you mean free to choose the way your brain produces the choice? Bc you can make free (as in unconstrained by outside forces) votes. They will just be ultimately caused by a long line of deterministic forces too

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Jared‏ @JaredThomasW Jan 10
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @HPluckrose @harari_yuval

      Yes I mean ‘because your way the brain produces the choice’.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 10
      Replying to @JaredThomasW @Intrinsic29 @harari_yuval

      See, he's good at this. Yes. I choose to write essays on politics. I couldn't choose to be able to write or enjoy writing or be interested in politics or be motivated to put all these things together or a number of other things essential to this 'choice' actually happening.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 10
      Replying to @HPluckrose @JaredThomasW and

      For me, which may be where Jared got the 'better to act as tho we do' thing, knowing we don't have free will when we break it down like this is much like knowing all knowledge is provisional. Something that should be known and acknowledged but don't get stuck there.

      4:31 PM - 10 Jan 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • Jared Kevin
      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Jan 10
          Replying to @HPluckrose @JaredThomasW and

          Because people can wallow in the futility of determinism or the ultimate uncertainty of knowledge and get stuck, often deliberately because they like it. Better to be aware of limitations to maintain compassion & humility but push on seeking to maximise liberty & attain knowledge

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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        2. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Jan 10
          Replying to @HPluckrose @JaredThomasW @harari_yuval

          Yeah, the only important implication of our lack of LFW, imo, is the fact that we don't ultimately choose our *intrinsic* traits and values so the state of those ultimately boils down to pure luck. This pulls out the rug for intuitions regarding just deserts and retribution imo.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Jared‏ @JaredThomasW Jan 10
          Replying to @Intrinsic29 @HPluckrose @harari_yuval

          I agree that the concept of libertarian free will is wholly inconsistent and I think Helen just answered my question with regards to the example of voting.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation

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