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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

      On the subject of what is true.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

      I'm not sure what's unclear. Harris is strictly empirical and rejects non-empirical notions of truth. Peterson is empirical while accepting that non-empirical notions of truth exist.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Rootless [But Very Stable] Cosmopolitan‏ @BrianBuchbinder 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @HPluckrose @Gil_Ant

      It seems the difference is sharper. Both accept that such "notions" exist. Harris denies they have any basis in reality, Peterson doesn't.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @BrianBuchbinder @HPluckrose @Gil_Ant

      That does not make sense. You can't accept non-empirical truth and then claim the concept has no basis in reality.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Rootless [But Very Stable] Cosmopolitan‏ @BrianBuchbinder 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @HPluckrose @Gil_Ant

      You can accept that people have "notions" of truth: "The world is full of demi-gods and fairies" without those notions being empirically true.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @BrianBuchbinder @HPluckrose @Gil_Ant

      That's not what we're talking about. We're taking about the agreement of what is true. Harris cannot agree that there is non-empirical truth then say non-empirical truth has no basis in reality.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

      Simply fixed because he wouldn't call it 'truth'. He'd say there are non-substantiated beliefs and there are truths. The postmodernists conflate these into different kinds of truths and ways of knowing & so does Peterson. It's not helpful.

      3 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    8. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

      I know he wouldnt call it truth, I have maintained that the entire time. A strict empiricist who rejects intangible truth would call it "non-substantiated beliefs". Peterson would agree it is not scientific fact but truth for being; the truth morality.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

      Hence truth stops being objective and criticisms that Peterson denies the objectivity of truth in the same way as postmodernists are substantiated.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

      He does not DENY objective fact. That immediately makes him NOT a postmodernist. He accepts science wholeheartedly and defends it all the time. He also accepts that some truths are not empirical but embedded in ideas, in stories, in literature, etc.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
      Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

      Helen Pluckrose Retweeted Helen Pluckrose

      Yes, he does. This doesn't make sense.https://twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/929420602687016961 …

      Helen Pluckrose added,

      Helen Pluckrose @HPluckrose
      No, no, no. You cannot reasonably say 'I believe in objective truth and also that subjective, erroneous things can be true.' You can muck about with the word 'truth' until you give the impression this makes sense but, in fact, it does not.
      Show this thread
      10:51 AM - 11 Nov 2017
      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @ThomasFriedman_ and

          If your understanding of truth includes things which are objectively true and things which are objectively false and things which are unknown to be true or false you are not a believer in objective truth in the sense in which it is meant.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @ThomasFriedman_ and

          And neither are postmodernists. They also accept as true some things which are objective and some which are subjective narratives. Robert Eaglestone calls this 'the metaphysics of correspondence' & 'primordial truth.' The former is a subcategory.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          So you will then agree Peterson is indeed not a Postermodernist?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          He's not a postmodernist, no. He just has the same rationale for subjective truth being constructed in narratives.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          Morality is subjective truth, so again I think you just fail to understand the topic all together.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          No, I don't fail to understand it. I disagree that this is truth. I know that people call all kinds of subjective stuff 'truth' and 'knowledge' & therefore they deny the objective nature of truth. Includes postmodernists & Prof Peterson.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @ThomasFriedman_ and

          This is the nub of the criticism. You may not like being called the denial of objective truth. Perhaps you could live with 'The denial that all forms of truth and knowledge are objective.' Either way, it is what both PoMos & JP are criticised for.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          Ironically your claim that he rejects objective truth is objectively false.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          I can't break this down any more. You mean that he accepts objective truths among other truths. I say that this means what he considers true is not always objective and neither is that his criteria. This is the criticism of him & of postmodernists.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          The acceptance of objective fact derived from empiricism and the acceptance of truths that exist outside of that are not incompatible. He's not going to argue for Flat Earth because of some myth that says so. He does not argue AGAINST science, he goes where it cannot.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          We are saying the same thing but you think this means he is a defender of objective truth because some of the truths he accepts are objective. I say he is not because his definition of truth includes things which are not objectively true.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          He's a defender of science. In the USSR, pretty much any academic or scientist whose study went against the concepts of equality were arrested and probably gulaged. He sees that sort of behavior manifesting in the far left and wants to end it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @ThomasFriedman_ @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          To a certain extent and yet we saw that he disagreed that the truth of square numbers would be scientifically established rather than by whether a belief about it aided survival.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Thomas Friedman‏ @ThomasFriedman_ 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @BrianBuchbinder @Gil_Ant

          You cannot cling to some obscure snippet of an interview completely divorced from context like this. Your narrative of his beliefs is wrong.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Rootless [But Very Stable] Cosmopolitan‏ @BrianBuchbinder 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @HPluckrose @ThomasFriedman_ @Gil_Ant

          After so much abuse of purported truths, in what can be described as a Thrasymachian (?) fashion, it's not surprising that the status of truth itself becomes contested.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Rootless [But Very Stable] Cosmopolitan‏ @BrianBuchbinder 11 Nov 2017
          Replying to @BrianBuchbinder @HPluckrose and

          By that I mean the myriad of historical examples when "truth" was what served the powerful, and was so imparted. So skepticism of such uses becomes an acid that dissolves all notions of truthfulness.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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