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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Oct 24
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @verybadwizards and

      Both Helen and James have passionately argued for gender equality in a number of places. Your quote here suggested they're opposed to it.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Oct 24
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @verybadwizards and

      And it'd be one thing if this was just a misstatement since this is basically live, but it's mixed in with a bunch of unfair mind-reading about their supposedly smug, gleeful intentions to hurt people.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @verybadwizards and

      It was generally uncharitable, yes, but we expected this. I think you are more upset about it than we are because you didn't expect it of VBW. And also know us and our motivations, obviously.

      3 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    4. David Pizarro‏ @peez Oct 24
      Replying to @HPluckrose @Intrinsic29 and

      I think my disagreement just boils down to whether hoaxing is necessary, or if it is effective to hoax, and whether hoaxing is the form of criticism that I’d want to receive (i wouldn’t, but we talked to James about the value of mockery and we just have different views).

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    5. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Oct 24
      Replying to @peez @HPluckrose and

      One point that would have been nice to hear brought up in relation to this is that the authors do argue against these ideas in ways that don't involve hoaxes rather often. This project is supplementary to that. Meant to address some common responses to that argument.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    6. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
      Replying to @Intrinsic29 @peez and

      But I think an ethical position against insincere scholarship intended to be revealed with an argument that there's a problem with knowledge production in that field can be consistently & coherently held whether you consider this hoaxing or not. I'd disagree with it.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. David Pizarro‏ @peez Oct 24
      Replying to @HPluckrose @Intrinsic29 and

      And I’m totally fine disagreeing with you on that! (I suspect you are fine too). I just wanted to go on record to clarify what the disagreement is about. (But hey, i also think lots of practical jokes border on unethical). The harder q to answer is whether they’re effective.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
      Replying to @peez @Intrinsic29 and

      Consistently? Do you think it is ever OK to go undercover to examine a system from within it and reveal a specific problem? I think we all draw a line somewhere. I wouldn't risk bad medical advice getting published. You'd prob be OK with revealing bad medical care?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. David Pizarro‏ @peez Oct 24
      Replying to @HPluckrose @Intrinsic29 and

      Sure, of course. But we’re just disagreeing about how to “reveal”, I think?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
      Replying to @peez @Intrinsic29 and

      Yes, but are we? Do you disagree that it is ever OK to misrepresent your identity and write papers that you don't believe to be good scholarship in order to show a problem in a field and how it works from start to finish?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
      Replying to @HPluckrose @peez and

      Or do you disagree that it was OK to do this to fields looking at race, gender and sexuality with a view to advancing social justice? Because you are sympathetic to the causes? That is most people's view & I get it. We have a bit about that in the Areo piece too.

      5:11 PM - 24 Oct 2018
      • 1 Like
      • Kevin
      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. David Pizarro‏ @peez Oct 24
          Replying to @HPluckrose @Intrinsic29 and

          Not at all- i think (and have said many times) that a lot of the work in those areas is ridiculous. What gets me is that it seems that a lot of folks think that disagreeing about the value of your method has to mean I am defending the work you criticize. But it doesn’t.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
          Replying to @peez @Intrinsic29 and

          No, it is quite possible to say, as even the Wall Street Journal did, that they thought this approach unethical but that it does point to a serious problem in the field.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. David Pizarro‏ @peez Oct 24
          Replying to @HPluckrose @Intrinsic29 and

          But “real peer review” points the problem pretty effectively.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
          Replying to @peez @Intrinsic29 and

          They do a lot of good highlighting the problem, yes. It doesn't mean the rest of shouldn't address it too and in a number of ways. People get the madness from RPR. I hope to show how it works so they know how to counter it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
          Replying to @HPluckrose @peez and

          This is why I have written a series of essays breaking down the key ideas underlying the problem & how it evolved & spread & how it manifests in society & am also writing a book to do this in more detail. We also wanted to participate in it from the inside to show how it works.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. David Pizarro‏ @peez Oct 24
          Replying to @HPluckrose @Intrinsic29 and

          Just browsing some of the real articles is painful. But I see you believe your methods are truly revealing something new, that others would never had seen (this is where Paul was in some agreement w you). I just think it galvanizes those who already agree, but changes no minds.

          4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Oct 24
          Replying to @peez @HPluckrose and

          I mean they objectively reveal how the entire process of getting a paper published works. That can't be denied. It may not sway many or any people are committed but I see no reason to think it wouldn't sway fence sitters or people relatively new to the problem.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
          Replying to @Intrinsic29 @peez and

          I think we already see some benefits where more people are openly saying they already knew there were a load of problems and distancing themselves from it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Kevin‏ @Intrinsic29 Oct 24
          Replying to @HPluckrose @peez and

          Yeah a lot of the utility I've seen already is in people close to the fields publicly announcing "everyone already knew there was a bunch of bullshit in these fields!" That by itself is great for people who didn't already know that to see imo.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        6. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
          Replying to @Intrinsic29 @peez and

          Yes! I see a shift. Much defensiveness coming out in different ways but much of it is about addressing the problem. Even Mother Jones came out in favour and Buzzfeed was balanced. If we have made this just a little more untenable and worthy of embarrassment it was worthwhile.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 24
          Replying to @HPluckrose @Intrinsic29 and

          Also, some productive conversations have happened with sincere right-wingers along the lines of "OK, you're admitting to problems on your side. We can also say we have some loons making false claims and being unethical." I'm intrigued to see where that will go.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. End of conversation

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