And now a hundred people are going to yell at me for hours so it is probably best if I go away and get some work done.
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I don't think you can argue there isn't a problem with the EU's tendency to prevent national autonomy in regional issues, nor the fact that mass immigration hasn't affected low income earners. The left has called any attempt to talk about this as racist. Brexit was inevitable.
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But this is actually reasons about which arguments can be made and evidence presented. It's not the "It's about democracy and sovereignty."
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I'm merely suggesting that the inability of both sides in this argument to resolve these problems, mostly due to one side slinging insults at the notion there was a problem, resulted in Brexit, at least as far as I understand it.
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I agree but I am talking about something else.
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Fair enough.
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And yet if you suggest that principle should play second fiddle to economics you're accused of being an amoral capitalist (can't win). Of course Brexiteers don't believe that we'll be poorer or that things will work any less well. It's as much opportunity as risk.
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People are increasingly arguing this to me. Saying it's not about the money. It's about democracy and/or sovereignty.
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It always was, Helen. Most people knew their own mind before the Bus of Lies pulled into view. And the percentage of people (37%) who put control of immigration as their primary reason to leave are equal to the general population (38%) who think immigration should be controlled.
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There was a time before the EU and the UK did just fine.
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Yes, if everyone left the EU, it would probably be easier on us. I don't think they will tho.
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Wait till the eurozone goes tits up.
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1. Leaving the EU. 2. Setting up a system of government in which all economic and social activity is controlled by the state acting through the medium of a single authoritarian political party, with the purported aim of realising the doctrines of revolutionary Marxism. NOT SAME
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Of course not. The argument is the same. Not the things they describe. That's what makes it particularly ironic.
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The UK should not continue to be part of an undemocratic federal state that was never designed to govern, being created with neither sufficient checks & balances on power, nor accountability to the governed. Not really seeing the similarities.
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1/ It's not undemocratic, though. The leaders of each country, all elected democratically, meet regularly to decide the direction of the EU. The EU Commission is comprised of commissioners selected by each member country, and ensure the legislation and treaties are carried out.
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2/ The Council of Ministers represents national governments, and is comprised of cabinet ministers from each country, each of whom are democratically elected in member countries. If a health issue is being discussed, the health ministers will convene, the same for trade, etc.
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3/ The ministers enact legislation. The EU Parliament consists of MEPs democratically elected by member states. We currently have around 10% of them, a substantial voice in Europe. They have the right to accept, amend, or reject most EU legislation. Their voice is important.
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End/ To me, this all looks not that different to how our own government works. We have plenty of unelected bureaucrats, civil servants, and even an entire unelected House of Lords, for which we have never had a say. In fact, the EU looks more democratic to me, not less.
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The unelected EU council is the only body who can propose new legislation. They are under no obligation to revisit bad laws. If you have an incompetent/corrupt/authoritarian council member(s), there is no mechanism for you to unseat them.
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