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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 21

    Some of the defenses I hear of Brexit strike me as amazingly similar to those of communism. This speaks to a big noble ideal so it doesn't matter much if, in practice, everyone is poorer and nothing works properly. We're not motivated by economics. It's the principle.

    9:18 AM - 21 Oct 2018
    • 20 Retweets
    • 75 Likes
    • Vaswati 🇺🇸 Phil Rankin Wodek Szemberg Keith Frankish Lawrence Newport 🌐 Cool Cat Sid Berman Centristliberal Alb Fernandes
    21 replies 20 retweets 75 likes
      1. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 21

        And now a hundred people are going to yell at me for hours so it is probably best if I go away and get some work done.

        2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. Richard Dickerson‏ @SlothSamurai Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I don't think you can argue there isn't a problem with the EU's tendency to prevent national autonomy in regional issues, nor the fact that mass immigration hasn't affected low income earners. The left has called any attempt to talk about this as racist. Brexit was inevitable.

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 21
        Replying to @SlothSamurai

        But this is actually reasons about which arguments can be made and evidence presented. It's not the "It's about democracy and sovereignty."

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Richard Dickerson‏ @SlothSamurai Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I'm merely suggesting that the inability of both sides in this argument to resolve these problems, mostly due to one side slinging insults at the notion there was a problem, resulted in Brexit, at least as far as I understand it.

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 21
        Replying to @SlothSamurai

        I agree but I am talking about something else.

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      6. Richard Dickerson‏ @SlothSamurai Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Fair enough.

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Harold Weaver Smith‏ @hws5mp Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        And yet if you suggest that principle should play second fiddle to economics you're accused of being an amoral capitalist (can't win). Of course Brexiteers don't believe that we'll be poorer or that things will work any less well. It's as much opportunity as risk.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 21
        Replying to @hws5mp

        People are increasingly arguing this to me. Saying it's not about the money. It's about democracy and/or sovereignty.

        2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. mickvernon‏ @mickymoovernon Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose @hws5mp

        It always was, Helen. Most people knew their own mind before the Bus of Lies pulled into view. And the percentage of people (37%) who put control of immigration as their primary reason to leave are equal to the general population (38%) who think immigration should be controlled.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. CA ballot propositions are  💀: vote NO on ALL‏ @Aintropy Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        There was a time before the EU and the UK did just fine.

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 21
        Replying to @Aintropy

        Yes, if everyone left the EU, it would probably be easier on us. I don't think they will tho.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. mickvernon‏ @mickymoovernon Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose @Aintropy

        Wait till the eurozone goes tits up.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Chris K-B #StandUp4Brexit‏ @LBSProtect Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        1. Leaving the EU. 2. Setting up a system of government in which all economic and social activity is controlled by the state acting through the medium of a single authoritarian political party, with the purported aim of realising the doctrines of revolutionary Marxism. NOT SAME

        2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose Oct 21
        Replying to @LBSProtect

        Of course not. The argument is the same. Not the things they describe. That's what makes it particularly ironic.

        3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
      4. AhmNee Marcus‏ @AhmNee Oct 21
        Replying to @HPluckrose @LBSProtect

        The UK should not continue to be part of an undemocratic federal state that was never designed to govern, being created with neither sufficient checks & balances on power, nor accountability to the governed. Not really seeing the similarities.

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      5. Meetal 'Maiden Blood' Leeka‏ @Meetal_Leeka Oct 22
        Replying to @AhmNee @HPluckrose @LBSProtect

        1/ It's not undemocratic, though. The leaders of each country, all elected democratically, meet regularly to decide the direction of the EU. The EU Commission is comprised of commissioners selected by each member country, and ensure the legislation and treaties are carried out.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      6. Meetal 'Maiden Blood' Leeka‏ @Meetal_Leeka Oct 22
        Replying to @Meetal_Leeka @AhmNee and

        2/ The Council of Ministers represents national governments, and is comprised of cabinet ministers from each country, each of whom are democratically elected in member countries. If a health issue is being discussed, the health ministers will convene, the same for trade, etc.

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      7. Meetal 'Maiden Blood' Leeka‏ @Meetal_Leeka Oct 22
        Replying to @Meetal_Leeka @AhmNee and

        3/ The ministers enact legislation. The EU Parliament consists of MEPs democratically elected by member states. We currently have around 10% of them, a substantial voice in Europe. They have the right to accept, amend, or reject most EU legislation. Their voice is important.

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      8. Meetal 'Maiden Blood' Leeka‏ @Meetal_Leeka Oct 22
        Replying to @Meetal_Leeka @AhmNee and

        End/ To me, this all looks not that different to how our own government works. We have plenty of unelected bureaucrats, civil servants, and even an entire unelected House of Lords, for which we have never had a say. In fact, the EU looks more democratic to me, not less.

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      9. AhmNee Marcus‏ @AhmNee Oct 22
        Replying to @Meetal_Leeka @HPluckrose @LBSProtect

        The unelected EU council is the only body who can propose new legislation. They are under no obligation to revisit bad laws. If you have an incompetent/corrupt/authoritarian council member(s), there is no mechanism for you to unseat them.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      10. 2 more replies

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