Because, in reality, it actually would matter if I earn half as much as my husband because I do a less skilled job or work half of his hours, or if it's because I am being discriminated against on the grounds of my sex. That is the whole point of looking at this issue.
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If stats can't help us with this, they can't, but then we'd need people to stop pointing at them to say there's a wage gap and it shows discrimination. They won't do that so I think I'll just have to say stats don't give us the causes of the gap & point out that choices do matter
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Maybe that's responding to mathematical error with a mathematical error but I'm not at all sure this comes down to maths anyway. Surely a wage gap which persists when those variables are controlled for means more than one where it doesn't. In real terms. Apparently, that's naive.
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Most interesting argument was that it denies women's agency to suggest they are free to make their own choices because this suggests they cannot choose not to enter jobs which are said to have high levels of discrimination. My head hurts.
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The problem isn't with the maths, but with the logic. We're being told that there is no conceivable data we could gather that would disprove the discrimination hypothesis other than "no measurable difference" -- but that will never happen, absent a radical change in human nature.
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Even “no measurable difference” would not disprove discrimination. Equality of outcome can be reached by foul means! That entire body of stats is useless with regards to measuring unfair discrimination.
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Yes, one of them actually said that. She said that a woman who was exceptional could brave entering a field that was hostile to women but then only get paid the same as a mediocre man so she would then be being discriminated against.
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I hadn’t though of that.
Blatant pay discrimination could be hidden by an army of super talented women being paid *below* their worth!
That could actually happen at the highest echelons, when talent is unevenly distributed between the sexes but equal pay policy is in force. -
As someone who recruited a couple thousand people over 10 years in 3 continents, regularly manage depts, make promotion & firing decisions, talk about those decisions with other managers, man&woman, talent & performance is what matters. Spectacular performance doesn't go ignored.
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That one is key, any manager who could staff talent for a lower price would go for it. The suggestion that prejudice and discrimination are so strong that one would elect to pay more 15 or 25% to a man, can only be made by someone who hasn't been in a place to make that decision.
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What's the error exactly?
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Ugh. Please see timeline and responses to me.
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Ah, I see. The "non-gender"-based variables might still be examples of gender-enforcement. I can see that. But, then, how can we ever measure whether we have equality of opportunity or not if statistics are not adequate as a measure?
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And there's the rub, and the strange intellectual and legal impassé we seem to have reached, culturally speaking. Intent/motivation is vital to understand when evaluating acts and consequences, and yet, intent/motivation is particularly difficult to determine.
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Not sure if I'm still muted. If not, thanks for discussing!
Thanks. Twitter will use this to make your timeline better. UndoUndo
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Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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No. It depends on what statistics & what variables. Some statistics reveal the truth. Others don’t. It can’t.
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In this case, yes; because they're being used to obfuscate and the people doing it have been, frankly, a hatful of arseholes.
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Many do that.
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