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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    1. Kareem Sabri‏ @kareem_sabri May 27
      Replying to @thatyellowfog @Manglewood and

      It's inaccurate to claim the man has made no correct statements, or no empirical statements. And it's naive and foolish to consider him stupid, as many people do. I don't know about "empirically correct", but his discussion of the gender pay gap is certainly empirically grounded.

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
    2. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 27

      what?! his discussion of the gender pay gap is where he gets precipitously owned by actual economists.

      2 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
    3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 27
      Replying to @gztstatistics @kareem_sabri and

      Actual economists debunk the gender pay gap routinely!

      4 replies 1 retweet 28 likes
    4. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 27
      Replying to @HPluckrose @thatyellowfog and

      uh, it's pretty well-established in the literature.

      4 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 27
      Replying to @gztstatistics @kareem_sabri and

      Adding 'uh' to the front of claims doesn't make them stronger. If you just mean it is established that women earn less than men, it is. If you mean it is established that this is caused by paying women less than men for the same job or by cultural conditioning, it is not.

      1 reply 1 retweet 34 likes
    6. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 27
      Replying to @HPluckrose @gztstatistics and

      Time and time again, it is shown that the gap all but disappears when hours worked, roles worked and time out are taken into account. Time and time again, it is shown that men & women choose differently and that this gap increases where women have most freedom to choose.

      2 replies 1 retweet 24 likes
    7. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 27
      Replying to @HPluckrose @kareem_sabri and

      Ah, so it sounds like you haven't read the economics papers. The simple insight you're missing is that those choices are after gender on the causal pathway, so you can't include them as controls to get your estimates. There still is a gap after you account for them, by the way.

      7 replies 3 retweets 23 likes
    8. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 27
      Replying to @gztstatistics @kareem_sabri and

      Do explain? Why aren't the choices people make significant to the income they earn?

      2 replies 1 retweet 5 likes
    9. Matt Darling  🌐‏ @besttrousers May 28
      Replying to @HPluckrose @gztstatistics and

      Helen, you and Peterson are making a mathematical error here. See page 74 of @causalinf's textbook: http://scunning.com/cunningham_mixtape.pdf …

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. Matt Darling  🌐‏ @besttrousers May 28
      Replying to @besttrousers @HPluckrose and

      What you are doing is called "controlling for a collider". Doing it means your regression has no causal implications. You are *assuming* no discrimination, not proving it.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 28
      Replying to @besttrousers @gztstatistics and

      I'm not assuming anything. Just saying that the fact that men and women earn different amounts of money doesn't tell us anything about the cause if the only variable considered is gender and we don't account for different jobs chosen and different hours worked.

      1:39 AM - 28 May 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Matt Darling  🌐‏ @besttrousers May 28
          Replying to @HPluckrose @gztstatistics and

          You are assuming it by the nature of the regression you are suggesting. That you are unaware of it doesn't make it untrue.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. AML‏ @amiguello1 May 28
          Replying to @besttrousers @HPluckrose and

          No. The people you are arguing against already know the simple notion that the choices women make could be affected by discriminatory behaviour/systems. Which is why they spend a large amount of time showing evidence that this effect is weak, and other causes are more likely.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 28
          Replying to @amiguello1 @besttrousers and

          Yep. If stats won't show that it matters whether women earn less because they work less or choose lesser paid work or because they are discriminated against, they are no good for this kind of problem. Because that is the difference that, in reality, actually matters.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. AML‏ @amiguello1 May 28
          Replying to @HPluckrose @besttrousers and

          I think the problem is that they believe you, Peterson, etc. are using the occupational control studies to say discrimination does not play a part in the wage gap, when in reality you are just using to argue against the common "paid less for the same job" claim.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        6. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 28
          Replying to @amiguello1 @besttrousers and

          Yep. Women's choices also matter. He'd have us believe that because choices could be constrained by culture, there is no point in knowing whether women earn less because they're doing different jobs or fewer hours or because they're paid less for the same work. Obviously wrong.

          2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
        7. Matt Darling  🌐‏ @besttrousers May 28
          Replying to @HPluckrose @amiguello1 and

          Helen, please do not inaccurately represent the arguments I am making. I think it is important to understand why people make these choices.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 28
          Replying to @besttrousers @amiguello1 and

          But choices cannot be a factor in looking at it statistically so every time anyone tries to talk about choices, you wave your little sheet to say why we can't. Well, we can. Just not with you.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. End of conversation

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