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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 27

    Helen Pluckrose Retweeted gz (not a doctor) thompson

    OK, So what if there were actually cognitive & psychological differences between men & women which affected their choices of job and also of work/life balance? Could this ever be discovered using this method?https://twitter.com/gztstatistics/status/1000923368948891648 …

    Helen Pluckrose added,

    gz (not a doctor) thompson @gztstatistics
    Replying to @HPluckrose @kareem_sabri and 5 others
    Here is the basic idea of a causal chain: which happened first, being a woman or choosing one's job? For most people, the chain of influence can only go one direction, which dictates the form the analysis must take.
    7:20 PM - 27 May 2018
    • 1 Retweet
    • 9 Likes
    • ♂=♀ ❌ Regina🎃 Mike Dignam Peon Ironic Zionist 🌐 E Ull Reliant Scimitar Nick McLean Keirnoth
    4 replies 1 retweet 9 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 27
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        1. There is experimental evidence of discrimination.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 27
        Replying to @gztstatistics

        That worked in women's favour, didn't it? They had to stop swapping names around because women were less likely to get interviews if they had a man's name?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 27
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'm thinking of Goldin on this (linking to the popular rather than the actual article so you'll read it):http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact-%E2%80%9Cblind%E2%80%9D-auditions-female-musicians …

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      5. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 27
        Replying to @gztstatistics

        Here's another one written very accessibly so you will.https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015/04/22/396672571/could-it-be-researchers-find-a-hiring-bias-that-favors-women …

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      6. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 27
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        3. I would be surprised if there weren't actual differences in preference but I'd have to look at actual literature or think a bit - it's late on a Sunday night - before commenting on measuring that.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 27
        Replying to @gztstatistics

        Vast amounts of evidence of this, the most damning being that women go into the areas of STEM where they are underrepresented less where they have the most choice.https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-most-authoritative-review-paper-on-gender-differences/ …

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 27
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        2. controlling for occupational choice introduces bias because it is after gender on the causal chain (and we have experimental evidence of discrimination anyway)

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. God's Ventriloquist‏ @godsven3loquist May 28
        Replying to @gztstatistics @HPluckrose

        So who gets to be an agent under this paradigm, those actively discriminating? The zeitgeist? Certainly not the women in this condescending take.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 28
        Replying to @godsven3loquist @HPluckrose

        The point is that the analysis described can't tease out what the cause is, you need an instrument or an experiment to do so, so the simple regression isn't informative. Hope that helps.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. God's Ventriloquist‏ @godsven3loquist May 28
        Replying to @gztstatistics @HPluckrose

        That’s the answer to a different question than the one I asked

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      6. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 28
        Replying to @godsven3loquist

        Slightly. Agency is irrelevant if what you're looking at can't tell you anything about it.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 28
        Replying to @gztstatistics @godsven3loquist

        The broader context here is that occupational choice -> wages. But if there's discrimination within occupations, either in the form of wage differentials or barriers to entry OR if, as the top-level comment suggests, there are psychological or physiological differences...

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      8. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 28
        Replying to @gztstatistics @godsven3loquist

        Or anything else *based on gender* in any of those cases rational agents would base their occupational choice on that. But this makes occupational choice a collider (whether there is discrimination or not!), so including it as a control is misleading. Either way, there's agency.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      9. gz (not a doctor) thompson‏ @gztstatistics May 28
        Replying to @gztstatistics @godsven3loquist

        But whatever we're doing, simply looking at some kind of multivariate analysis of the wage gap isn't telling us anything about that.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      10. End of conversation
      1. Benjamin Stephenson‏ @Pathdom May 27
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I'm not sure the belief in socialization and discrimination as the only causes of gender disparities is falsifiable in some people's minds. I say this because of my interactions with people defending the firing of James Damore.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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