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HPluckrose's profile
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
Helen Pluckrose
@HPluckrose

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Helen Pluckrose

@HPluckrose

Editor @AreoMagazine Secular, liberal humanist. Mother. Doglover. Writing book about epistemology & ethics on the academic left Helen.pluckrose@areomagazine.com

London.
areomagazine.com/author/hpluckr…
Joined August 2011

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    Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 26

    Helen Pluckrose Retweeted Ava Dalley

    A pragmatic argument. Yes, they should have the right to do this. Yes, this is ethically justifiable. No, this is not going to work. The last one matters and so I am critical of it on those grounds. A clarity which isn't achievable by mixing all these things up.https://twitter.com/AvaDalley13/status/1000348272471441408 …

    Helen Pluckrose added,

    Ava Dalley @AvaDalley13
    Replying to @AvaDalley13 @HPluckrose
    A couple of years ago, I would have fully supported the players. And perhaps be proud of them in a way. But our society is on the edge. I think protest of any kind need to be very, very careful.
    5:15 AM - 26 May 2018
    • 11 Likes
    • Wandering Martin Trumpet of Virtue Joe Bingham Harmony Ewing Yenrap Rellin The Grey Girl ☽  ✶ ♔ Scary ℒou.•*:。✩
    7 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Ava Dalley‏ @AvaDalley13 May 26
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but anyway, maybe I'm too pragmatic. I don't think many people agree with my point lol. But for me it's so much about working or not working, but more about what you want to achieve or what conversation you want to bring about.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 26
        Replying to @AvaDalley13

        Helen Pluckrose Retweeted Helen Pluckrose

        Sorry, its part of an ongoing thing on my timeline about people mixing and merging arguments and this not working. You didn't do that.https://twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1000348943807631360 …

        Helen Pluckrose added,

        Helen Pluckrose @HPluckrose
        Very often, problems with thinking things through and making arguments for and against them come from conflating a number of different questions like: Should people have the right to do this? Is what they are doing ethical? Is what they are doing likely to work as planned?
        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Mike‏ @citation_needed May 26
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        I agree with you and @AvaDalley13 - I agree with you completely. We have a sick addiction to being righteous over doing what works, and, as Gough Whitlam observed when chiding the left last century over that exact phenomenon, "only the impotent are pure".

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 26
        Replying to @citation_needed @AvaDalley13

        Yep. I'm not sure Ava realised I was agreeing with her so thanks. I get a little too abstract at times.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Ava Dalley‏ @AvaDalley13 May 26
        Replying to @HPluckrose @citation_needed

        Oh lol that's alright, I get it now.

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Ava Dalley‏ @AvaDalley13 May 26
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Oh well, maybe I'm just too careful and don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 26
        Replying to @AvaDalley13

        No, not at all. I'm sorry if you feel used for demonstration! I'm just very interested in the layers of the argument and you're presenting a good example of the pragmatic one while Juli gives a good example of the principled one. Both these elements are needed.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Jason Keebler  🐻‏ @JasonKeebler May 26
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        They do have a right to protest. But the league also has a right to protect its product, and police its work place.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Helen Pluckrose‏ @HPluckrose May 26
        Replying to @JasonKeebler

        Helen Pluckrose Retweeted Helen Pluckrose

        https://twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1000344867845832704 …

        Helen Pluckrose added,

        Helen Pluckrose @HPluckrose
        Freedom of speech is good. & Private entities have the right to demand adherence to their ethics. are two separate ethical issues which often coincide. I think we must uphold the latter but criticise it if doesn't support the spirit of the former. https://twitter.com/AvaDalley13/status/1000342097222873088 …
        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Jason Keebler  🐻‏ @JasonKeebler May 26
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        😂 Sorry, didn’t see that one. For some reason it didn’t show up in my TL.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Mazzakim‏ @Mazzakim May 26
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        @AvaDalley13 White people being on edge because they are fearful they are losing their place of privilege in society is not something that should give one pause. And that's really what this is all about. "Damn those uppity ..." for not knowing their place.

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Adam Kolasinski‏ @adamckolasinski May 26
        Replying to @Mazzakim @HPluckrose @AvaDalley13

        White people are a huge chunk of the population, so BLM protesters are much less likely to get police reform if they alienate large swaths of the white population. This article suggests a better strategy:https://quillette.com/2018/05/24/folly-racialized-criminal-justice-reform-debate/ …

        3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Mazzakim‏ @Mazzakim May 26
        Replying to @adamckolasinski @HPluckrose @AvaDalley13

        I read the article, and there are some valid points. But may I respectfully suggest instead of getting defensive/offended when black people point out the realities of being black in America, maybe you should try to consider whether or not an actual point is being made.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Mazzakim‏ @Mazzakim May 26
        Replying to @Mazzakim @adamckolasinski and

        And I'm not particularly sorry, but worrying about offending the delicate sensibilities of white people simply because they are the majority should not be high on anyone's list of social justice concerns.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. Adam Kolasinski‏ @adamckolasinski May 26
        Replying to @Mazzakim @HPluckrose @AvaDalley13

        You will never get any public policy change without significant white support, so avoiding giving unnecessay offense to whites should be a priority. Unless you are more interested in moral grandstanding than policy, in which case, carry on.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. Mazzakim‏ @Mazzakim May 26
        Replying to @adamckolasinski @HPluckrose @AvaDalley13

        If standing up and demanding justice offends certain people, so be it.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      8. Adam Kolasinski‏ @adamckolasinski May 26
        Replying to @Mazzakim @HPluckrose @AvaDalley13

        Okay, so your objective isn't to actually achieve policy reform. You are more interested in moral grandstanding. I hope you enjoy yourself.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      9. Mazzakim‏ @Mazzakim May 26
        Replying to @adamckolasinski @HPluckrose @AvaDalley13

        We can do all of the above? LOL.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      10. 8 more replies
      1. New conversation
      2. Ava Dalley‏ @AvaDalley13 May 26
        Replying to @HPluckrose

        Kneeling is their right. But, ultimately it seems that it amount to nothing more than "sticking up to the white men", so to say. I understand where people are coming from. And yes the White House started it. But does someone's childishness give us the right to be careless?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Charles Peyton‏ @Friedmanzone May 26
        Replying to @AvaDalley13 @HPluckrose

        Now that Trump has decided to abuse his office by calling for the ban, I hope the protest continues, and that white players join it in solidarity.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Charles Peyton‏ @Friedmanzone May 26
        Replying to @Friedmanzone @AvaDalley13 @HPluckrose

        That would "work" in the sense of drawing a line in the sand that a civilised commander-in-chief shouldn't think of crossing in future.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. End of conversation

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