GeniesLoki

main reason why I loathe the "male gaze"-framing is that it invariably implies that 1) sexual attraction is incompatible with respect and 2) being attracted to female bodies does women harm + is intrinsically gross and a sign of lacking self-control desiring sex is not violence.

I know it's not what people use the world to mean now but I am fond of the (iirc original) usage, referring to visual arts Choosing to depict female bodies as erotic objects in visual arts by default Has Consequences

so maybe this is just my own particular weirdness but I feel like having your body be viewed and depicted as an erotic object is a huge benefit/privilege? As a guy I'd love to have that happen to mine, even by default 'bodies as functional' by default *also* has consequences :(

It's good "as part of a balanced breakfast" as it were It sucks when there's /only/ caricatures/fetishes and /no/ real people (hyperbole obv) when you go looking for representations of yourself in the world I think non-whites in Europe/America get this too

In an ideal world all genders and ethnicities get a bit of everything in how they're depicted But in this context "male gaze" says when the makers of the art (and their intended audience) are primarily one demographic, you get one particular projected subset of those depictions

To continue on this branch: I agree that this is a problem, but I'd say then the problem is still not *at all* with 'male gazes'; rather, the problem is with the lack of non-male gazes criticizing male gaze is in no way equal to addressing said lack; thus I find it 100% harmful

I don't think I've ever seen someone just say "the male gaze is bad", although I've seen some ambiguous cases (where you can't really tell if someone wants less or none).

I think with a lot of this stuff there's a fairly wide gap between what people explicitly say and the overall effect that is created by what people say. A lot of men (and women!) do seem to come away a strong "Being attracted to women is intrinsically oppressive" impression.