GeniesLoki

the virgin: if feminism is fake then all its concepts are fake feminism is fake therefore all its concepts are fake vs the chad: if feminism is fake then all its concepts are fake this feminism concept is not fake therefore feminism is not fake

Feminism is 100% real but men have been structurally hermeneutically disadvantaged by the lack of a functioning corresponding masculinism. (the manosphere stuff definitely ain't it)

Mind expanding on masculinism v. manosphere?

Mostly I think the manosphere defines itself as in opposition to feminism rather than in cooperation with it, lacks a psychologically healthy foundation, and contains a lot of toxic subcultures (such as PUA) that poison the whole pool.

Like I think a better starting point would basically be "Cool, feminism has done a lot of great work for analysing the societal consequences of gender norms, but it's written mostly by women so lacks an understanding of men's lived experience, can we fix that?"

It's going to be impossible to build the cooperation that a masculinism would want as long as feminists refuse to grapple with this. Mainstream iterations of feminism see men as emotionless (ergo, experienceless) creatures, therefore there is no lived experience to study.

I think you're making the mistake of conflating a movement with its worst members though. I've rarely had trouble talking about this with individual feminists one on one - there's definitely a large core of feminists who are perfectly open to this.

and I mean granted that's a "rarely" that is heavily selected for only talking to reasonable people, but there's more than enough such people to have productive discussions.