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Failed_Buddhist's profile
Failed Buddhist
Failed Buddhist
Failed Buddhist
@Failed_Buddhist

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Failed Buddhist

@Failed_Buddhist

Human, student, non-Buddhist Buddhist, intellectual masochist. Confident only of my own ignorance. Don't believe anything I say.

thefailedbuddhist.wordpress.com
Joined January 2017

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    1. Michael W. Taft‏ @OortCloudAtlas Mar 9
      Replying to @misen__ @iwelsh and

      Shinzen was making the point that not all people with a deep awakening are good @ teaching it to others. He would use JK as the prime example. His point is that while it’s true that there’s nothing to get and nowhere to go, you still have to give people something to hang onto.

      2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    2. Mi'sen‏ @misen__ Mar 9
      Replying to @OortCloudAtlas @iwelsh and

      Excellent clarification. Thank you sir.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Michael W. Taft‏ @OortCloudAtlas Mar 9
      Replying to @misen__ @iwelsh and

      As for the go-to definition of classic awakening, the short version is that you realize that there’s no such thing inside you as a self. There’s much more after that, but that’s considered the basic “qualification.” (And, yes, I’m aware of all that’s problematic @ that def.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. Ian Welsh‏ @iwelsh Mar 9
      Replying to @OortCloudAtlas @VincentHorn @shaunbartone

      Yeah, the other version (same thing, differently stated) is realizing "I'm just the witness". Which you get seems to depend on your tradition/previous learning/framing. Or that's my understanding, I am (probably) willing to defer. But awakening is not enlightenment.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Failed Buddhist‏ @Failed_Buddhist Mar 9
      Replying to @iwelsh @OortCloudAtlas and

      What's the difference between awakening and enlightenment, in your view?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Ian Welsh‏ @iwelsh Mar 9
      Replying to @Failed_Buddhist @OortCloudAtlas and

      awakening is when you get your first experiential proof that you are not all that crap. So, for example, my first awakening got me "I am not my personality". Didn't get me "I am not my body." Further awakenings got me other stuff.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Ian Welsh‏ @iwelsh Mar 9
      Replying to @iwelsh @Failed_Buddhist and

      as for enlightenment. /shrug/ there are a fair number of definitions that seem reasonable "I am everything/nothing", Jiva-mukti (end of new conditioning), the dissolving and reassembly of sense data, etc... Not sure which is "enlightenment". Am sure I am not enlightened.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Ian Welsh‏ @iwelsh Mar 9
      Replying to @iwelsh @Failed_Buddhist and

      however, other people use the words in other ways, and I am not saying they are wrong. This is just how I used them. I will say that this causes problem. My first main teacher told me I was enlightened. I said "uh, don't think so". He meant what I mean by awakened.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Failed Buddhist‏ @Failed_Buddhist Mar 9
      Replying to @iwelsh @OortCloudAtlas and

      Let's not forget that "enlightenment" is a late western translation of "bodhi", which is also exactly where the term "awakening" comes from. So the distinction is, at best, a little murky. There isn't even a consensus among Buddhists as to what the Buddha "woke up" from (or to).

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Failed Buddhist‏ @Failed_Buddhist Mar 9
      Replying to @Failed_Buddhist @iwelsh and

      Personally I don't like these terms. They only start Buddhist flame wars and confuse people. Seems to me that "enlightenment" is just a placeholder for some vague notion of an "ultimate" attainment. The meaning changes depending on a tradition's language, culture, or metaphysics.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Failed Buddhist‏ @Failed_Buddhist Mar 9
      Replying to @Failed_Buddhist @iwelsh and

      Trying to get enlightened is a fool's errand, because it's a completely arbitrary goal. If you want insight into impermanence, do the specific practices that bring about that insight. If you want to glimpse emptiness or no-self, do the respective practices for these insights.

      11:55 AM - 9 Mar 2018
      • 1 Like
      • Shaunyata
      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Failed Buddhist‏ @Failed_Buddhist Mar 9
          Replying to @Failed_Buddhist @iwelsh and

          Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that, but it's much more useful than lumping together 2,500 years of spiritual development across a variety of cultures.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Sindre‏ @Triquetrea Mar 9
          Replying to @Failed_Buddhist @iwelsh and

          Much as I agree with many of your points, I think you are falling victim to some of the same language games here: the usefulness of wanting to get enlightened is entirely dependent on what is meant by it, and the awareness one has of the ramifications *in context* - which varies.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Sindre‏ @Triquetrea Mar 9
          Replying to @Triquetrea @Failed_Buddhist and

          It's true & worth entertaining that most of the traditions find "seeking" or wanting to get enlightened problematic, but there are pretty clear reasons why - and not of the "starts Buddhist flame wars" variety, since that's more of an opt-in sort of problem, at least on this end.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Failed Buddhist‏ @Failed_Buddhist Mar 9
          Replying to @Triquetrea @iwelsh and

          By flame wars I didn't literally mean internet wars (clear evidence that I'm not immune to misusing terminology). I meant just people from varying traditions arguing over what enlightenment is, who's more enlightened than who, etc, as if they're all talking about the same thing.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Sindre‏ @Triquetrea Mar 9
          Replying to @Failed_Buddhist @iwelsh and

          Well, indeed, no need to label that as flame wars. Actual wars have been fought over that.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        7. Failed Buddhist‏ @Failed_Buddhist Mar 9
          Replying to @Triquetrea @iwelsh and

          Touché.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Ian Welsh‏ @iwelsh Mar 9
          Replying to @Failed_Buddhist @OortCloudAtlas and

          I would simply say that there appear to be different types of enlightenment, so aim for the one(s) you want. But residing in is very different from glimpsing.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Failed Buddhist‏ @Failed_Buddhist Mar 9
          Replying to @iwelsh @OortCloudAtlas and

          Agreed. I liked that Chan master quote you posted. Awakening can be seen as coming to an understanding of what it is you're actually doing in practice. Then you actually have to practice it.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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