Failed Buddhist

How do you get someone to dis-identify from their thoughts, or see them as emptiness, without first having an awakening that they are not their thoughts? For me, it was in the other order.

It can go in either order. Also: thoughts are not the problem.

Thoughts are a problem for as long as they're a problem, unless they aren't. In case they are not, the problem stops being, except in thought. Except when it doesn't. In which case you may try the method above. :P

There isn't even any need to "quiet" thoughts, if they're seen as thoughts, as emptiness, rather than self.

I'm with the Zen guys on this. Come to think of it, I'm probably a crypto Zen Buddhist in more ways than one. Not, mind, because thoughts are so dangerous. They're mostly just annoying and distracting. #NotAllThoughts, though.

Aren't they mostly just annoying if you're unaware of the fact that they're empty phenomena? If I see thoughts as they are, why would they be any more annoying than an itch, or any other sensation?

I suppose I'd say the problem with thoughts is taking them to be solid reality, not necessarily the thoughts per se. But I think the same applies to any phenomenon. Seems we're pretty much in agreement. (Or not?)

I don't know. This discussion is sort of circumspect and theoretical, I feel. Thoughts are objects, like particles. But just like I don't want too much dust on my windshield, I don't want too many thoughts in my consciousness.

Yes. It would have been more accurate for me to start with: "If you are bothered by incessant mental chatter, try this practice. It worked for me."

Yes. But then, that would not sound as cool! I'm all for sounding cool. I mean, I'm a rooster, so don't take my advice on that. Crowing impressively is sort of half the job.

We're all weird birds, tweeting into the void.

Yes, but the point isn't what is "most helpful". The point is to commit to a practice that works, for you. Recent decision: I'm going to go more heavily into Zen-oriented practice, though I'm not going to just drop everything else I've learned. Reason being it fits my purposes.

Imposing on others to pick "your" practice - which is not something I'm accusing you of, mind - gets really weird and narcissistic, real fast. But also, practicing without *any* framework is a very easy way to get really confused at times. I should know. Been doing it for years.

Most of the methods are meant for a particular time and context in a persons life. Sometimes I feel when we chat about it there is a fantasy of resolving the issue of the perfect ‘invulnerable’ practice.