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ESYudkowsky's profile
Eliezer Yudkowsky
Eliezer Yudkowsky
Eliezer Yudkowsky
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@ESYudkowsky

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Eliezer YudkowskyVerified account

@ESYudkowsky

Ours is the era of inadequate AI alignment theory. Any other facts about this era are relatively unimportant, but sometimes I tweet about them anyway.

Joined June 2014

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    1. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ESYudkowsky and

      Under some reasonable interpretations of “objectively true,” there aren’t any outside math and possibly QFT. Under some other reasonable interpretations, lots of things are objectively true. Lots of arguments founder on this contrast.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Suppose I suggested you can have a distinguishable solid subsystem of a fuzzy system. Distinguishing objects in the environment is fuzzy, assigning meaning to "three" is fuzzy, but once counting and naming is done, the arithmetic subsystem is locally quite solid.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Yes! Rationality works, when it does, because somehow inferences within the mathematical system turn out to be true-enough in the real world.

      3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    4. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Suppose I then suggested that adopting any number of purposes and object distinguishers will nail down this core subsystem surprisingly hard. To the point that alien systems probably agree with ours not only about 2 + 2, but about formulae with no practical use like 85378^397642.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      I agree that math is a domain in which absolute truth applies. (Modulo maybe stuff like the independence of the continuum hypothesis, but let’s ignore that.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Okay. What about "absolute" systems that cast nonabsolute prescriptive recipes as shadows, like "try counting digits and adding to estimate the product to within a couple of orders of magnitude"?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      That particular example is just true, isn’t it? (Arithmetic isn’t my strong suit)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      It'll actually end up being an overestimate. 20 * 20 * 20 ~ 10000 not 100000.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Oh, I was thinking about multiplying just two numbers. I guess I don’t follow your question about shadows and so on. If you’re talking about products of any number of numbers, this rule is useless. Maybe we can think of a better example of a roughly-right heuristic.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      It's in fact useful for eye-checking many sets of numbers we multiply in practice. It tells us ordering 37 of a $16 product should not cost $100,000 like the computer says, even if you can't do the arithmetic in your head.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @Meaningness and

      You need to understand the right context in which to use this tool, and its limits, and not take the recipe as an absolute, and check the results against common sense and reality.

      9:15 PM - 28 May 2018
      • 1 Like
      • absurdest absurdist
      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          OK, this is great—that’s exactly what I’m calling “meta-rational judgement”! My thesis is that you always need to do that when applying rational methods, and there’s skillsets for doing that, and those tend to be neglected, and it would be good to help people learn them.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          Threading is a nightmare here. See my continuing reply. "Decision theory" isn't the adding-digits recipe, it's the more abstract idea of Peano arithmetic that helps us understand when the recipe might fail or succeed, even though applying the Peano axioms is way too laborious.

          3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          Yes, boo to twitter threading!

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @Meaningness and

          Imagine now that all you know are many recipes like this, and counting and object discrimination is as fuzzy as ever.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @Meaningness and

          You might be very skeptical of any claim about an Absolute Mathematical Truth that casts all the practical recipes as shadows, and it would certainly take some facility with abstraction just to understand the claim.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @Meaningness and

          After all, you've seen so many enthusiastic youngsters who believe Digit-Adding works absolutely every time and is the only tool you ever need in the toolbox.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @Meaningness and

          What you're being presented with isn't a replacement for your toolbox, though. It's a more abstract knowledge that governs every tool you can try to invent, even though you still need the tools because you can't use Absolute Math to get the answer, plus counting is still fuzzy.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          (I’m not sure if this tweet is the completion of a train of thought, or if you are still going?) I don’t follow (thus far). I’ve said that math is a domain of absolute truth. It’s a thing we do have, not an ideal we approximate.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          Only if you have a computer and even then you can't calculate the 100th Busy Beaver number or the leading digit of Graham's Number. It's easy to state slightly harder math questions that leave us with only guessing heuristics and no way to just Apply The Defintion of A Number.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          Right. But isn’t your point that even if we can’t implement it, decision theory is Correct? I’m agreeing that it is Correct in the sense that it’s math and math is absolutely true (or not at all).

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          I'm genuinely not sure what you mean by Correct in a sense that DT could be inCorrect. DT is valid math, and it also has another key property that might not be what you mean by Correctness; it's math that governs all the tools in a certain toolbox and helps us make better tools.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 1 more reply

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