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ESYudkowsky's profile
Eliezer Yudkowsky
Eliezer Yudkowsky
Eliezer Yudkowsky
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@ESYudkowsky

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Eliezer YudkowskyVerified account

@ESYudkowsky

Ours is the era of inadequate AI alignment theory. Any other facts about this era are relatively unimportant, but sometimes I tweet about them anyway.

Joined June 2014

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    1. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ArtirKel @ESYudkowsky @juliagalef

      “Objectively best” assuming a set of axioms is satisfied. There can sometimes be a bait-and-switch or motte-and-bailey here when you try to apply this to a concrete real-world situation.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. José Luis Ricón (Artir)‏ @ArtirKel May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ESYudkowsky @juliagalef

      Do you have a specific example in mind?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ArtirKel @ESYudkowsky @juliagalef

      Well, to get decision theory to apply, you have to characterize the situation in terms of a set of well-defined actions, well-defined outcomes, well-defined goodnesses, and you need some meaningful way of estimating probabilities. None of those are objectively given.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      This example isn't analogous but I'm curious how you'd reply to a student saying, "The notion of 'objectively true sentences' is wrong and can't be rescued, because words don't have culturally independent meanings and there's no Objective Teacher to grade answers as correct."

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      This has several moving parts, so it’s a bit complicated. First, there is no clear definition of “objective” or “objectively true,” as far as I have been able to discover. There are several pretty different uses that are all quite vague.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ESYudkowsky and

      Under some reasonable interpretations of “objectively true,” there aren’t any outside math and possibly QFT. Under some other reasonable interpretations, lots of things are objectively true. Lots of arguments founder on this contrast.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Suppose I suggested you can have a distinguishable solid subsystem of a fuzzy system. Distinguishing objects in the environment is fuzzy, assigning meaning to "three" is fuzzy, but once counting and naming is done, the arithmetic subsystem is locally quite solid.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Yes! Rationality works, when it does, because somehow inferences within the mathematical system turn out to be true-enough in the real world.

      3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    9. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Suppose I then suggested that adopting any number of purposes and object distinguishers will nail down this core subsystem surprisingly hard. To the point that alien systems probably agree with ours not only about 2 + 2, but about formulae with no practical use like 85378^397642.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      I agree that math is a domain in which absolute truth applies. (Modulo maybe stuff like the independence of the continuum hypothesis, but let’s ignore that.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
      Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

      Okay. What about "absolute" systems that cast nonabsolute prescriptive recipes as shadows, like "try counting digits and adding to estimate the product to within a couple of orders of magnitude"?

      8:47 PM - 28 May 2018
      • 1 Like
      • DK🐍hadow( )
      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          That particular example is just true, isn’t it? (Arithmetic isn’t my strong suit)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          It'll actually end up being an overestimate. 20 * 20 * 20 ~ 10000 not 100000.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          Oh, I was thinking about multiplying just two numbers. I guess I don’t follow your question about shadows and so on. If you’re talking about products of any number of numbers, this rule is useless. Maybe we can think of a better example of a roughly-right heuristic.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          It's in fact useful for eye-checking many sets of numbers we multiply in practice. It tells us ordering 37 of a $16 product should not cost $100,000 like the computer says, even if you can't do the arithmetic in your head.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @Meaningness and

          You need to understand the right context in which to use this tool, and its limits, and not take the recipe as an absolute, and check the results against common sense and reality.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        7. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          OK, this is great—that’s exactly what I’m calling “meta-rational judgement”! My thesis is that you always need to do that when applying rational methods, and there’s skillsets for doing that, and those tend to be neglected, and it would be good to help people learn them.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky May 28
          Replying to @Meaningness @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          Threading is a nightmare here. See my continuing reply. "Decision theory" isn't the adding-digits recipe, it's the more abstract idea of Peano arithmetic that helps us understand when the recipe might fail or succeed, even though applying the Peano axioms is way too laborious.

          3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness May 28
          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @ArtirKel @juliagalef

          Yes, boo to twitter threading!

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. End of conversation

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