This is a war fought at the apogee of Spartan strength; it was quite literally all downhill from here.
-
-
Vastauksena käyttäjälle @BretDevereaux
Ah! That does it thank you!
1 vastaus 0 uudelleentwiittausta 2 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @doctorcomics ja @BretDevereaux
Also, while Bret is very right to stress the limits of Spartan ability, there is one thing at which they were undeniably better than other Greeks: maintaining cohesion in pitched battle. All 3 of the victories I mentioned directly resulted from this one thing.
1 vastaus 0 uudelleentwiittausta 10 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @Roelkonijn ja @doctorcomics
Indeed, the Spartan failure is in translating that cohesive advantage into durable strategic results. It's a Ends-Ways-Means problem: they have some means (cohesive hoplite battle) but no sense of how to connect that to a set of ways which result in the ends they want.
2 vastausta 0 uudelleentwiittausta 9 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux ja @doctorcomics
Yes, and there is some very good scholarship on how the things that make them good at pitched battles get misapplied with disastrous results - such as Anaxibios deciding to fight to the death against Iphikrates at Abydos, which just gets a bunch of Spartiates killed for no reason
1 vastaus 0 uudelleentwiittausta 6 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @Roelkonijn ja @doctorcomics
And honestly, I think the stubborn arrogance that made the Spartiates such awful diplomats was probably a factor in the cohesion of that phalanx too. Sparta really churned out men 'of a type.' Brasidas is, I think, the one ringing spartiate exception.
1 vastaus 0 uudelleentwiittausta 7 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux ja @doctorcomics
I would be very wary of Thuc's extremely self-interested attempt to paint Brasidas as the great exception... If Brasidas was indeed a different type, so was Gylippos, Lysander, and perhaps Klearchos
1 vastaus 0 uudelleentwiittausta 5 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @Roelkonijn ja @doctorcomics
True, though I feel like those are the exceptions that prove the rule; Lysander and Gylippus were not Spartiates but mothaces. And all three faced significant resistance from the Spartiate political establishment.
3 vastausta 0 uudelleentwiittausta 4 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux ja @doctorcomics
Sure, but they went through the education and everything. If we believe in the power of Spartan nurture (as opposed to nature), these men should have been of the same type as the rest.
1 vastaus 0 uudelleentwiittausta 2 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @Roelkonijn ja @doctorcomics
I wonder if the ritualized hazing has the same effect if you know from the beginning that you will never get to really belong to the club at the end. I think acceptance and belonging are an important part of the indoctrination stew; these men got stew with no stew-base.
1 vastaus 0 uudelleentwiittausta 4 tykkäystä
I've been thinking about this a fair bit, I'm poking around a more formal look at the agoge, because I think the comparison to more securely documented modern systems of the military indoctrination of children might help us understand the ancient institution.
-
-
Though if I ever put pen to paper, I want to run a draft past you so I don't make a fool of myself stepping out of the Roman lane.
1 vastaus 0 uudelleentwiittausta 6 tykkäystä -
Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux ja @doctorcomics
This is really a question for
@Dr_Helen_Roche who has done exactly this kind of comparative work!0 vastausta 0 uudelleentwiittausta 6 tykkäystä
Keskustelun loppu
Uusi keskustelu -
Lataaminen näyttää kestävän hetken.
Twitter saattaa olla ruuhkautunut tai ongelma on muuten hetkellinen. Yritä uudelleen tai käy Twitterin tilasivulla saadaksesi lisätietoja.