Really? I'm reading your Sparta series now and it seems to imply the opposite.
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Vastauksena käyttäjälle @IdiotTracker
Sparta is both 1) a unique polis because of the helots and 2) one of the hardest of hard oligarchies.
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Vastauksena käyttäjälle @BretDevereaux
Do you not get the strong sense from a passage like this that Thucydides loves Athens and its form of government? Serious question.pic.twitter.com/QvDp2tdoWw
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Vastauksena käyttäjälle @IdiotTracker
I get the sense that Pericles does; he's speaking here, not Thucydides. There's a whole exciting debate about the degree to which Thucydides' speeches were his own construction or original (he claims to have gotten the gist of the original when he could)...
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux ja @IdiotTracker
...but this is a speech he could have personally attended or had direct, reliable reports of. A fair number of his readers would have been witnesses to the speech. Which suggests it follows Pericles' thinking, rather than Thucydides'
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Vastauksena käyttäjälle @BretDevereaux
Maybe. I tend to think that when people were reading it 15 or 20 years or more after the fact, they were probably not fact-checking it too strenuously, and Thucydides probably suspected they would not, as he had just then invented fact-checking.
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Vastauksena käyttäjälle @IdiotTracker
"With reference to the speeches in this history...my habit has been to make the speakers say what was in my opinion demanded of them by the various occasions, of course adhering as closely as possible to the general sense of what they really said" (Thuc. 1.22.1).
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Vastauksena käyttäjälle @BretDevereaux
To paraphrase Rex Warner's introduction: There is no way to reconcile the last 2 clauses with each other. I would like to believe these are close to real speeches bc I am a huge Thucydides fanboy. But my cynical heart says that they are mostly proto-narration.
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Vastauksena käyttäjälle @IdiotTracker
I don't think they're incompatible at all - and they're not usually read as being so. It's generally read as a "when I knew what they said, i wrote as close to that as I could, when I didn't, I wrote what I thought the moment would have demanded they say."
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux ja @IdiotTracker
And taking Pericles' praise of the Athenian system as Thucydides' opinion of it is discordant with his expressed view on the subsequent failure of that system to produce policy and his later statement that a *different* system without the democracy was just straight up better.
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For instance, Thucydides clearly does not consider Athenian justice to have been "equal to all in their private differences" when he was exiled for what he clearly presents as no fault of his own (4.105ff)
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Vastauksena käyttäjälle @BretDevereaux
I wonder if his numerous, detailed accounts of talented citizens exiled from their home cities stirring up trouble for them by going over to their enemies represented a sort of historiographic catharsis.
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