Bret Devereaux

@BretDevereaux You write that "Thucydides [was an] aristocratic Athenian[]… frustrated that democracy – in [his] view – let the fickle, uneducated and poor ‘masses’ make decisions that ought to have been left to their ‘betters.’" What in his History do you infer that from?

PS: Quote is from Sparta I, tried to leave a comment but the page wouldn't let me.

He says the latter - the 'always grasping for more' of the Athenians and the contrast between wise Pericles and the imprudent decisions of the Athenian assembly (e.g. Sicily) subsequently.

But Pericles was part of the democracy. The democracy put him in positions of leadership until he died of the plague. Pericles isn't a counterpoint to democracy.

What Thucydides says re democracy is that they need good leaders, who put the polis first, and don't appeal to the absolute fucking worst instincts of the people in the service of their own aggrandizement. Might I suggest that we Americans should keenly appreciate that insight?

...right, so Thucydides thinks that the best people to govern the polis are its elite leaders, not the demos itself. He had a dim view of the average Athenian's ability to decide for themselves what the polis ought to do, and thought they'd be better off advised by their betters

Remember that Athens was a direct democracy, not a representative one. The position of "the people should select wise elites to lead them and make all of the decisions" was the oligarchic position in Athens.

But Thucydides never said anything like that. He said Pericles WAS a wise person that the people DID select, repeatedly, despite his being willing to say unpopular things & not cater to the worst in them.