Isn’t the first mention of them during Hannibal’s Campanian campaign?
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @MykeCole ja @BretDevereaux
They appear in Livy at earlier points, but I suspect it's accidental. The best really clear depiction of velites doing velites things is in Upper Macedonia in the 2nd War.
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @ProfPaul_J ja @BretDevereaux
Yeah, but that’s later. If your question is when they first appeared, I think our best evidence is Campania. Prior to that I think different words are used.
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @MykeCole ja @BretDevereaux
Livy 26.4.4: Young men, fast and agile, were selected from all the legions and supplied with shields somewhat shorter than those used by the cavalry. Each was furnished with seven javelins, four feet long and tipped with iron heads similar to those on the hasta velitaris
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @ProfPaul_J ja @BretDevereaux
ex omnibus legionibus electi sunt iuuenes maxime uigore ac leuitate corporum ueloces; eis parmae breuiores quam equestres et septena iacula quaternos longa pedes data, praefixa ferro quale hastis uelitaribus inest. Can’t this also describe leves? Where’s the philological hook?
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @MykeCole ja @BretDevereaux
quale hastis uelitaribus, "of a kind with the hasta velitaris" Livy calls these same men velites later in the passage.
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @ProfPaul_J ja @BretDevereaux
Right, but the subject there is the spear, not the person, right? He’s just saying these guys have the fast-spear. Or am I misreading the Latin?
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @MykeCole ja @BretDevereaux
A couple of sentences later he calls those men "the velites" This suggests that when he says "like the hasta velitaris" he's not saying they were a different corps than the velites in that army, but their spear was perhaps the ancestor/prototype of the velites' spear
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But Livy refers to velites in earlier books. But their use of the hasta velitaris and shield here is difficult to establish earlier. Not sure when the sword comes in either, or when this armament became standard.
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @ProfPaul_J ja @MykeCole
Ah, this is a tricky one. I am mostly with
@ProfPaul_J as seeing Liv. 26.4 as the first evidence for the velites as such. The issue, of course, is that Livy's sense of older Roman armies is often absolutely lousy with anachronisms. Liv. 8.8 is just a mess.2 vastausta 0 uudelleentwiittausta 2 tykkäystä
At the same time 'just so' stories about the introduction of a given tactic are inherently suspect. There seem to be light troops functioning with the legions earlier than this (Liv 8.8.5), and I tend to think the more mature formation of velites evolved out of that gradually.
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Oakley suggests that the velites might just be the rorarii with a new name, which is tempting, but raises all sorts of questions. The one thing I don't buy is the suggestion - Michael Sage, I think - that the velites are a consequence of a 2nd-punic-war manpower shortage.
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux ja @MykeCole
Yes, I don't buy that one either. I think they're more likely an out-growth of increased experience in warfare and money to fund arms production. Similarly I suspect the scutum (as Polybius describes it) did not replace the more common thureos until the late 3rd century.
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