look, capitalism is bad, so all things that are bad are capitalism.
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BeijingPalmer ja @canderaid
Ho boy is there an exciting debate we can have with roughly 100 year historiography on the degree to which the Roman Empire could be fairly described as capitalist. But, ah, the short answer is "no, probably not."
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Maybe I'm tugging on a thread you don't have the time or inclination to answer, but surely the Roman Empire was a capitalist market system: trade routes throughout the empire, patricians in lucrative private businesses, etc.
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @grizwald87, @BretDevereaux ja
Although maybe you're saying that the primary motivation behind Roman policy decisions wasn't strengthening the capitalist economy, which makes sense and which I would agree with.
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So, this cuts to really complex questions about how 'capitalism' is defined. Often it is used as 'society with market interactions' - something so broad that it would include very many societies. Alternately, it can be defined very narrowly, as an ideology of markets, or...
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux, @grizwald87 ja
...a social system where the ownership of capital acquired through market exchange (as opposed to political ownership, e.g. "the king owns the land because he is the king") dominates the economic landscape. Many of these 'capitalism is the root of all evils' arguments...
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux, @grizwald87 ja
...rely very fundamentally on shifting between these definitions in deceptive ways. The degree to which Rome had a market economy is heavily debated (I trend towards the 'yes' answer, but with important caveats). The degree to which it was meaningfully 'capitalist'...
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux, @grizwald87 ja
...though? I think it is hard to argue that the political elite who actually controlled the Roman Empire considered themselves capitalists, or their power to derive from the possession of capital. They quite clearly knew that power derived from control over state violence.
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux, @grizwald87 ja
In practice, the argument becomes so circular and so dominated by how exactly one defines 'capitalist' rather than anything about the 'facts on the ground' as to make it quite useless. Better to have clear discussions of Roman society without the baggage of 'capitalist.'
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux, @grizwald87 ja
I am reluctant to over-conflate Biblical Rome with the Rome that actually existed in fact. What Rome actually was and did isn't particularly relevant to what biblical Rome actually was and did. (Unless you want an extra-textual guilty party to blame the Crucifixion on.)
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Er, no. The Biblical Rome is the Rome that actually existed, on account of the New Testament being written entirely by people who lived within the Roman empire during the period of existence. These are primary sources. I often find that the public sense of the dating...
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux, @grizwald87 ja
...and thus potential primary-source usefulness of the New Testament is *really* out of step with the scholarship. The synoptic gospels all probably date from the first century (the only real first century authorship question is John). And of the Pauline epistles...
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Vastauksena käyttäjille @BretDevereaux, @grizwald87 ja
...seven are generally accepted as written *by Paul* (or more correctly, written by a single author who, Occam's razor, ought to be identified as Paul). To be clear, I'm not saying this is the religious tradition, but rather the secular scholarly position.
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