I attend a church that leans calvinist. I've not read Calvin, but I haven't found myself having much conflict with the pastor's messages. What is the main issue people have with calvinism? Do we disagree about sovereignty?
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Replying to @jovial_cynic @BrianZahnd
Imo a confusion that predestination means every single instant is determined by God and he is therefore in complete control and we have no free will. I would argue that is actually less sovereignty than God having foreknowledge of all possible worlds and their pre-destiny.
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Further how can we confront being made in Gods image and having no freedom at all? Limited or constrained free will makes far more phenomenological sense and the language of the Bible reflects that.
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A confusion of works vs grace with matters of free will is absurd. Obviously we have no work in our salvation, no cause-and-effect relationship on a human level. If we are asking a scientific or philosophical question about determinism, we must be clear about that.
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Replying to @Ahimsa_Satya_ @BrianZahnd
Re: natural determinism, I agree that this is a different conversation than a "God's chosen people" conversation. But you seem to imply that calvinists are determinists. Am I understanding you incorrectly? Because I don't think most folks are that intellectually aloof.
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Replying to @jovial_cynic @BrianZahnd
I’m not sure if John Calvin’s ideas are determinist... they might imply we lack free will but he might just limit it. I would say it’s more the calvinIST that I’ve met espouse what are effectively deterministic views.
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I have found that there are dozens of different definitions of determinism and compatibilism and at a pastoral level most people take these ideas in what is essentially a physical determinist manner. I’m more open to non-causal divine determination.
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It’s an insanely deep discussion and most non-intellectuals get lost in the weeds so I sortof wonder what the point is at the end of the day.
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Part of me is suspicious because the free will vs determinism debate has been going on for thousands of years and when certain theologians seem to claim they have resolved the issue with certainty it makes me think they are constructing a priestly veil to keep out the laity.
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Replying to @Ahimsa_Satya_ @BrianZahnd
It does feel like an intellectual exercise more than anything else. The consequences of the differing viewpoints seem to be minimal; you can twist either view into a perverse "logical conclusion," just as easily as you can find grace in them.
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Agree. To easy to blame people who tend toward free will arguments of being focused on works and too easy to accuse determinists of being irresponsible. Something like that.
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Replying to @Ahimsa_Satya_ @BrianZahnd
Much harder to simply love God above all else, and to love one's neighbor as themselves. ... but the mental gymnastics of the debate can be entertaining.
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