I'm legit actually open to there being some cosmic force that channels predictive power into e.g. astrology, but I'm also annoyingly familiar with every single way scientific studies can go wrong, and my standards for accepting proof of predictive astrology are real high. 4/
Conversation
I'm uncertain about the internal experience of people that causes them to do self-mind experiments and then land on strong, predictive beliefs about the way external reality functions. Maybe I got immunized from having spiritual experiences as a Christian, then losing my faith?
3
66
And to be clear, I think it's super likely that there's a lot of stuff going on that we currently process as woo or magic that probably has some reasonable backing to it. As I've said before, brains are powerful and complex and I 100% believe we can get way freakier. 6/
1
45
I myself hold some pretty insane-sounding perspectives I got out of my deep dives, that I don't usually say to anyone cause it's real hard to explain without sounding unhinged. But my frames are *not predictive*, which feels like a real important distinction. 7/
2
2
61
It almost feels like woo-believers are failing to grasp their own power. In holding predictive beliefs about the world, they're placing the power *into the world.* They rely on the cycle of the planets to grant them authority, or an impressed recipient to verify the telepathy. 8/
3
49
This is an inherently vulnerable position - it's possible that woo beliefs can be disproven, because they are *about the external world*, which makes testable the hypothesis that you are delusional. All the insights here are *conditional* upon a thing outside of your control. 9/
3
36
And yet the function is also to reassure the believer that they do in fact have power. They have access to information no one else does by divining the stars, or having experienced the aliens/entities/spirits, or being able to read your energy. 10/
1
25
Woo beliefs make you feel safe and special - great incentives to hold them! But *lots* of beliefs make you feel safe and special - why woo beliefs, post-spiritual experiences? I'm not sure. 11/
2
36
From my perspective, "proper" insane spiritual insights are unconditional, self-contained, and invulnerable. They are untestable, not about the world, they are owned entirely, wholly, inside your own experience. Nothing can possibly happen to make them untrue. 12/
1
2
57
If you have a deep experience that convinces you that somethin woo is real, I am open to woo being real, I just likely won't take your experience as strong evidence, much as I don't take my own as evidence. There's lots of better evidence we could find, so let's go looking! 13/
2
43
P.S. another caveat: I think the brain is very powerful and would not be very surprised if things like rituals or placebo or tiny, magic-like elements we don't fully understand did in fact have strong, purposeful impacts on the brain, and suspect some woo practices are effective
Replying to
I was a pretty solidified atheist and materialist by the time I tried psychedelics (18 or 19). I got perhaps a little woo-curious. But nothing shook my fundamentally scientific, rationalist view of the world. I think that may be more common than it seems.
1
2
1
Show replies
Replying to
You mentioned genetics. I think there's something there, but related to two independent things. Some emerge so certain of their psych-derived insight, even if it doesn't have woo elements. Feels like two distinct tendencies, woo or certainty, perhaps independent genetically
1
Ex: I read of a woman whose psilocybin trial convinced her she had to leave her husband. No real reason, just a deep conviction. No woo belief. A man had the opposite, a conviction he had to love his wife more. This conviction tendency could be its own thing, psychedelics or not
Replying to
You are extraordinarily thoughtful and extraordinarily articulate about it. Perhaps that was the permanent alteration.
Replying to
"always keep an open mind, just not so far open your brain falls out". I've definitely had shit I cannot explain happen during trips, but I think the woo beliefs come from the compulsion to explain it rather than allowing it to be a sort of open mystery.
1
Replying to
I think there's good evidence that placebos are effective. And - I say this as a thorough-going scientific naturalist - I wouldn't be surprised if things like rituals and mystical-like events can have peculiar effects on the brain, just in a very-likely natural way.
Replying to
This was a good read thank you. I’d recommend reading Robert A Wilson’s cosmic trigger. He talks about being a hardcore agnostic and working within different belief systems in conjunction with psychedelics.