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IMO trad isn’t losing, it’s emerging, and I think you can draw a pretty clean line there from a culture that increasingly uses “vanilla” as a put-down for girls that don’t want the crap beaten out of them during sex & “ghosting” as a euphemism for using & discarding sex partners

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cause atm I'm not fully convinced these ppl understand exactly why trad sexuality norms are losing out in today's sex battles; trad sexuality norms may have helped a lot, but they also really fucking hurt a lot too, and I want deep recognition of that before moving forward

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I am similarly against progressive sex culture where they shame trad sexuality; if you're putting down girls who don't like rough sex then that's bad (tho to be clear, celebrating girls who do like it is fine, much as celebrating women who want to be wives is fine)

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also to be even more clear, I think you were extrapolating some things that I didn't mean and representing a more extreme version of the argument, which I don't support.

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to be even even more clear, if you push trad sexuality culture spectrum slider all the way far, you start getting some fucky stuff where people's natural impulses are shamed and suppressed (e.g., the gays). if you push liberal sex slider all the way, you also get fucky stuff

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my discomfort with trad sex discourse is that I'm not always fully convinced that ppl in it are aware of the variety of fucky stuff that can happen at the edges, that they take seriously the ways far-slider versions have hurt people in the past

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I feel like I'm uncomfortably running behind like "are u sure you're aware of that failure mode cause you don't seem to be looking at it yourself". I think if I saw independent discussions among those ppl like "how do we make sure we don't push slider too far" I'd feel better

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something like, I've seen people really deeply hurt by far-slider trad sexuality, and I want some reassurance that trad sex ppl aren't gonna do that again, that they actually care. given that, I feel a lot of flexibility and space for it.

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What I’m trying to offer is that trad folks are fundamentally motivated by what they want for themselves, many are driven by harms from modern sexual culture that really are no less profound, and they are misrepresented by the assumption that they e.g. don’t care about gay rights

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I don’t think trad folks don’t care about gay rights, I’m saying “suppressing deviant sexuality” is a historic failure mode with that as an example (much as “pressure women to like kinky sex” would be a failure mode of progressive sexuality)

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I don’t even think trad culture generally offers much commentary on “deviant sexuality” aside from the fact that modern culture incentivizes young women to participate in it reluctantly and doesn’t obligate anyone to help pick up the pieces when that works out poorly

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Yeah i think comparable moderate versions of trad and progressive sex cultures aren’t inherently focusing too much on the opposition? Both seem to be saying “the extreme version of the opposition hurts me”, which is reasonable

9:59 PM · Jul 20, 2021

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As in; pressuring women to engage reluctantly in kinky sex would be an extreme version of progressive sex culture that no ‘normal’ progressive sex culture person would support; much as pressuring women to be housewives is an extreme version of trad culture

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