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Conversation

1/Let's say we have a culture where it's considered extremely bad to masturbate. You masturbate, of course. Now you're put into a position where, if you engage honestly with the rest of the community, you will be harshly punished. You can't be honest if someone asks what you

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2/did, otherwise they might shun you or yell at you. "Maybe you should have thought of that before you masturbated", they say if you try to explain this. So you try not to masturbate, so you can be honest. But it's extremely hard, and eventually you fuck up and masturbate.

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3/This is tragic. This puts you into a horrible position with your community, where your basic needs that harm nobody are at odds with other things you value, like honesty and communication and being accepted. You can find this more commonly in strict communities, but not only.-

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4/How do we tell if something is a "difficult cultural standard" by this definition? To qualify, it must: 1. Not hurt anybody 2. Be difficult to avoid doing/relating to base needs So: Do you have any examples of actions that are violations of social morality, but don't hurt-

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5/anybody (beyond the strictly constructed/cultural impact, e.g., "you hurt me so much by breaking my trust to go masturbate like that"), and are difficult to avoid doing (such that a significant percentage of the population does this despite harsh social stigma)?

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(my answer that spawned this is 'cheating')

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funemployed cat stepdad

@odd_dimensions

Replying to

Cheating hurts people, though. It is a violation of trust and causes emotional harm. I'm not arguing for or against it but just because it doesn't draw blood doesn't mean it's not harmful.

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@odd_dimensions

You could make the exact same argument in the case of masturbation. "But masturbation violates trust that you won't masturbate, and it causes deep emotional harm when you do. Just because it doesn't draw blood doesn't mean it's not harmful."

5:05 AM · Jan 3, 2020

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@odd_dimensions

I think the distinction between explicit and implicit contracts is important. If I'm born into a culture where (talking about) masturbation is prohibited, I didn't enter into that contract willingly. Relationships are entered into willingly.

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@odd_dimensions

Maybe the difference is that masturbation doesn't cause deep emotional harm but cheating does?

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Seriemördaren Thomas

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@odd_dimensions

What's your definition of hurting in this context if hurt feelings doesn't count? Only physical injury?

Replying to

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@odd_dimensions

If your partner asks you to not masturbate and you agree to those terms then you shouldn't masturbate. You are within your rights to not agree to those terms and walk away from the relationship. If you want an Open Relationship ask for one. They are within their rights to refuse

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@odd_dimensions

I don't think it's fully intellectually honest to equate masturbation to infidelity. The situations engage different levels of "trust". To equate them is to reduce the varying degrees/potentiality of harm that infidelity can cause. It's just so circumstantial.

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@odd_dimensions

The problem with cheating is that it violates a contract you made with *your partner* and not just a cultural norm, so it isn’t really analogous to masturbation in your scenario

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@odd_dimensions

There is literally no connection. Masturbating is something you do to yourself and cheating is something you do to someone else who didn't ask for it. Also there is no factual basis behind saying that masturbation is harmful, if anything it's an unscientific belief.

Just Some Rando

Replying to

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@odd_dimensions

Masturbation is the act like having sex with others is the act. Cheating is specifically agreeing to be with only one person then having sex behind their back. There is no Masturbation equivalent. No one hates you for having sex with others...

Uʀsɪɴᴀᴇ Vᴇsᴘᴇʀᴀ ʕ'ᴥ'ʔ

Replying to

and

@odd_dimensions

But masturbating will never put anyone at risk of being pregnant or transmit STI... Masturbating involved only yourself. I think you are using too big of a stretch to compare two things that can’t really compare

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