Like, pro-life people legitimately think they are saving the lives of infants. And yes, if someone thinks that, then of course it makes sense they're gonna try to make abortion illegal. You would too if you fuckin thought you were preventing the mass slaughter of innocents.
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Are the pro-lifers consistent about it? No. Is their "saving the lives of innocents thing" at the expense of women's agency over their lives? Yes.
Doesn't mean they aren't still trying to stop what is in their eyes a legalized massacre, my dudes.
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The claim that this is really about controlling women's bodies is horseshit. It's a side effect, not the main goal. It's just super easy to take unflattering side effects and point at it and scream loudly THIS IS WHAT YOU WANTED ALL ALONG, YOU VILLAINS
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Would be like if you campaigned for women's equal working rights in a sexist country, and then all the sexists came out of the woodwork to insist that your true goal all along was to separate women from their children, you anti-family monster.
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My mom once got pregnant with a fetus with half a brain and some important organs missing. Doctors told her it was definitely going to die, she should abort. Nope - she carried the baby to term, gave birth, and he died in her arms. Here's me and my brother in this photo
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My mom was once arrested for blocking the entrance to an abortion clinic (years later, I protested planned parenthood alongside her). If you walked up to my mom and told her she only cared about controlling women's bodies, that would have been such an insult.
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To be clear: I think (even really late) abortions should be legal. I think it's better for society in almost every way.
But the pro-choice rhetoric sucks absolute balls, come fucking on guys you are better than this. You don't have to demonize the enemy to win.
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Stop saying it's about controlling women's bodies, it isn't. Acknowledge that the opponent thinks they're doing good, but are misled, and then continue the debate with actual real facts, not lazy mischaracterizations.
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The kind of person who debates a pro-lifer with the lazy insistence that their motivation is bad is the kind of person who believes good things because they are *lucky*, not because they are *good at thinking*
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This is the same kind of person who, had they been born in a different culture, would have embraced the norms of that culture, even if they were barbaric. I can't credit these pro-choicers with any correctness beyond what was given them by their culture.
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And the amount the "they only want to control women!" narrative permeates every discussion is incredible. It's such a heavily dominant opinion in any progressive circle and any suggestion that maybe they actually are trying to save babies is outright rejected or even mocked.
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I've never personally noticed this, and feel that what you've said here is the common response I hear in my circles?
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I'm glad to hear this! Most of the response I've gotten has been on the internet, which might be part of the problem (although this is even in semi-private internet circles).
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People who don't understand basic biology trying to impose their standards upon others in that context have no right to claim they don't deserve to be mocked, regardless of their intentions.
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This is exactly the kind of reaction I'm talking about. I'm not talking about what should happen from your point of view, I'm saying that we should imagine what it's like to be someone who, in their reality, babies are being slaughtered around you.
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There's more than one motivation to do things. I fully believe there are people who think think they're saving babies. I also think there are people who want to control women who demonstrably don't gaf about the babies once they're born.
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I agree in general, and motivations do vary. I do think the argument that "they stop caring once the babies are born" is a good argument and deserves discussion - but it's a different discussion than the abortion thing.
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Yes they think they save a child's life but they definitely do not care about it from the moment it is finally born. If they cared about life that much, they should also provide for a child to have everything it needs to grow up. But no, the mother and father are on their own
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This is a fair critique! But it's not a critique about abortion, it's a critique about conservative values being more on independence and less on care and empathy.
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to ignore the fact that, yes, there are manipulative pro-lifers in power, whose goal IS taking away women’s agency, who exploit ignorant/earnest pro-lifers, is pretty naive, no?
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I am skeptical of the idea that there are pro-lifers who are sitting there thinking "Damn, women have too much agency, and we're going to fix that through taking away their abortions!". I think that taking away the agency is a secondary effect of other goals.
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