My Old and Middle Irish have never been good but I will say these are a good way to learn the genitive forms of names. What is also interesting is what words/sections get missed in comparable passages.
-
-
Show this thread
-
Something that has arisen in my looking back over some of the genealogies I've written about. So, I have written a large chunk of material on the Ui Brigte, an obscure sub-family in the Deisi. They seem to have lived in Waterford.
Show this thread -
Probably the most comprehensive as well as early genealogies, I've based a lot of my research on a MS at TCD, MS 1298. It has not been digitised or scanned so I work off of my own photos of it and an unofficial transcription.
Show this thread -
I was checking on a related Deisi family (Ui Rossa) when I decided to cross check some of the other big genealogical MSS (Ballymote, Lecan, Rawlinson B 502, Book of Leinster). For Lecan, in the catalogue description, I saw this:
Show this thread -
"[Dési.] Genealogies of the descendants of Fiacha Sui[g]de, son of Feidlimid Reachtmar, viz.: Dési Muman (Uí Faelan), Uí Brigdi, Uí Rossa, Uí Fer nGair, Uí Aengusa, na Déisi, Clann Eogain Bric, Uí Dicholla and Uí Rossa,Uí Brigde, including a list of seven bishops of this race"
Show this thread -
So I went and checked the Bishop List. It follows the Ui Brigte, and at first glance it seems to connect because it talks about a Bishop Colman of Cluain Iain Mor, son of Fortchern. There is a Fortchern in the Ui Brigte, son of Tigernach.
Show this thread -
However, in the Book of Leinster, Colman is son of Fortchern son of Dicolla, and while this family is a Deisi family they are not linked to the Ui Brigte, although confusingly after this genealogy they give the genealogy for a Bercan, also Deisi but a different line
Show this thread -
And then they say: "I n-h-Uib Luachain i n.h. Brigti isna Desib Muman i n-Druim Luachain" so they locate the Ui Brigte as part of Deisi Muman near Druim Luachain. So, okay, I think that the problem results in seeing a Fortchern and knowing these are Deisi bishops
Show this thread -
Linking them to the Deisi family with a Fortchern. But Fortchern isn't entirely rare. It is interesting that this list of Deisi bishops cannot be found in TCD MS 1298 (that I can find, it is not located along with any of the Deisi genealogies but perhaps it is elsewhere).
Show this thread -
I wish I had access to O Riain's Corpus genealogiarum sanctorum Hibernaie right now, because he apparently located some of these bishops and religious folk to a few areas in Kildare and one in Waterford. But alas, it is not online anywhere.
Show this thread -
But I think this highlights a lot of problems with approaching the Irish genealogies, that it is very difficult to cross ref all entries (and genealogies are frequently repeated and contradicted within one manuscript).
Show this thread -
But identifying placenames with ones mentioned in the genealogies can be very useful but for people approaching it after the fact, it is frustrating to not have access to everything right now or to know the rationale.
Show this thread -
Oh also there is another Fortchern in the Ui Brigte genealogies, but this one is the son of Fiarlathi/Iarlathi.
Show this thread
End of conversation
New conversation -
Loading seems to be taking a while.
Twitter may be over capacity or experiencing a momentary hiccup. Try again or visit Twitter Status for more information.