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AdmiralHip's profile
Dr C. M. Bromstick🧹, Dublin
Dr C. M. Bromstick🧹, Dublin
Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin
@AdmiralHip

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Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin

@AdmiralHip

Early Medieval historian: Ireland & Britain, kingship, landscapes, mentalities | knitting, video games, bread | ND | disabled | she/her | #BlackLivesMatter

Ireland
Joined December 2011

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    1. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      Concubinage also continued, for a long time. Not necessarily "legally" but shall I point to the Merovingians? Also, remarriage happened SO OFTEN. The idea of "weak" kinship ties is...very inaccurate.

      1 reply 2 retweets 47 likes
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    2. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      Kinship was an ever changing thing. For nobles it defined your right to inherit titles, and primogeniture was not the norm for a long time. Also, people invented kinships and genealogies.

      2 replies 2 retweets 41 likes
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    3. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      But the fact that their data cannot account for peasantry of which we have very spotty demographic marriage data, then this whole study is ridiculous.

      2 replies 2 retweets 57 likes
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    4. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      And also, it totally ignores the fact that cousin marriages were in fact very common in the post-medieval period. Like please explain to me how this works when 18th and 19th c England and Ireland have many examples of cousin marriage.

      2 replies 3 retweets 49 likes
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    5. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      You know what’s worse than not citing historians? Is citing historians and not actually considering what they wrote, and having a lack of engagement with the wider discourse. It means that you looked, stopped when you found what you thought you needed, and didn’t go further.

      3 replies 6 retweets 59 likes
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    6. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      So their map: premise is regarding the early Church contact with the world and the impact on kin structures. Okay so not only is the premise here that the early medieval Church was a Western European thing, it ignores the origins and impact of Christianity in the following places

      1 reply 2 retweets 33 likes
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    7. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      Ethiopia being the biggest one, but in general it oversimplifies the Church in N Africa and the Middle East quite significantly.

      1 reply 1 retweet 32 likes
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    8. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      Also re: data sets. They are comparing modern evidence (presumably of regular people but I have no idea) with the aforementioned spotty kinship data of the medieval period and just mashing it all up together and presenting that as a model.

      1 reply 1 retweet 31 likes
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    9. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      Did no one see the problems inherent in that?

      1 reply 0 retweets 25 likes
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    10. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 8 Nov 2019

      Also if someone could point out their primary sources/data sets to me in this, I would love that. Because I cannot for the love of me find them in the paper. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/eaau5141 …

      4 replies 1 retweet 34 likes
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      Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 9 Nov 2019

      Since some person decided to be rather rude about the medievalists who are more than justified in calling this paper out, I want to just highlight something regarding medieval history that I mentioned yesterday.

      3:37 AM - 9 Nov 2019
      • 25 Likes
      • Sara Ellis-Nilsson, PhD Kevin Caliendo, PhD Maureen🥀 Marianne Eileen Wardle, PhD 𝕸𝖊𝖉𝖎𝖊𝖛𝖆𝖑 𝕹𝖎𝖈𝖐 Chris Seggerman Spontanvegetation Jack Z Katherine Schofield 🦋
      2 replies 0 retweets 25 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 9 Nov 2019

          We do not (generally) look at how the past precipated things in the distant future, whether that be nations, ideologies, impacts.

          1 reply 0 retweets 30 likes
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        3. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 9 Nov 2019

          Simply because it is impossible to boil it down to one cause, one thing.

          2 replies 0 retweets 30 likes
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        4. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 9 Nov 2019

          The Church’s rules against cousin marriage cannot explain modern Western society.

          1 reply 0 retweets 31 likes
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        5. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 9 Nov 2019

          Because not only was it not enforced in a way we can accurately understand, but for the Early Modern period when we do have much more demographic data, we know cousin marriages were very common in places like England and I suspect Ireland also.

          1 reply 0 retweets 27 likes
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        6. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 9 Nov 2019

          And very likely elsewhere.

          1 reply 0 retweets 18 likes
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        7. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 9 Nov 2019

          So you can’t say, well the systemic contact with the church led to ideas of individuality and such because...that is so Eurocentric and ignores modern data also.

          1 reply 3 retweets 26 likes
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        8. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 9 Nov 2019

          Again, I want to point out that they seem to think the medieval church had no impact on N Africa (Ethiopia!!!!) and the Middle East.

          2 replies 1 retweet 31 likes
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        9. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          Okay so, some final thoughts as I had a look through the supplemental data, located here: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.eaau5141.DC1/aau5141_Schulz_SM.pdf …

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        10. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          (hopefully that link works). Anyway, it's long, over 50 pages. So, for future reference for myself and others, Science papers tend to have the longer study in the supplemental. I didn't realize, no one indicated that to me on Friday, or over the weekend. Only now.

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        11. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          They used dispensations from the Vatican archive as evidence, but it seems that is modern evidence? p. 7

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        12. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          So for medieval Church exposure: "These measures capture the average duration ancestors of modern-day countries’ inhabitants were exposed to the Churches’ MFP up to the year 1500CE. See Figure 1 in the main text for an overview..."

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        13. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          "...The measures are coded in three steps. First, for each country, the starting point of the Church’s MFP is determined. Second, the years (up until 1500) during which the country was governed by a Christian ruler are counted..."

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        14. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          "...Third, the measure is ancestor-adjusted to account for population movements post-1500." p. 8. Okay, so I read this as accounting for descendants from medieval peoples only? Not sure how to interpret this tbh.

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        15. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          The MFP is what they call the Medieval Family Program. Started in 506 from the Synod of Agde, when the consanguinity prescriptions began properly, according to them.

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        16. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          Okay so, they start from this date, except for places not yet converted, and they include them after they were properly brought into Church administration.

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        17. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          So this is in effect a rolling impact presumably, as more and more bishoprics are established. This is interesting to me, methodologically, because it assumes that "Church influence" is congruent with bishoprics/admin, rather than a general societal impact.

          1 reply 1 retweet 8 likes
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        18. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          As far as I can tell, they do not acknowledge the enforcement of these rules would not have really been possible, at a late or early stage, and would have been targeted towards elites (who received dispensation often or flouted the rules).

          1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
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        19. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          Here is the bit about monasteries.pic.twitter.com/nyIXdpsKWp

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        20. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          However the more I read this, the more I am unsettled by the premise that exposure to the Church results in "individualism, creativity, embeddedness, and analytical thinking."

          1 reply 3 retweets 11 likes
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        21. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          I see Mitterauer cited here, a few other historians like De Jong, but a lot of articles on consanguinity from other scientists.

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        22. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          And perhaps I am reading this wrong. But it seems to me that this is comparing "The West" as it were with non-Christian, non-Western societies, that from their map seem to be African/Asian nations, with these outcomes. That is...idk. But it unsettles me, guys.

          2 replies 2 retweets 14 likes
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        23. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 11 Nov 2019

          Eurocentric at best. But that's not a good thing.

          2 replies 1 retweet 10 likes
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        24. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 21 Nov 2019

          @prof_gabriele and @ISASaxonists wrote an article in @TIME regarding this and the misuse of medieval history among the far right:https://time.com/5734697/middle-ages-mistakes/ …

          1 reply 1 retweet 10 likes
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        25. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 23 Nov 2019

          Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin Retweeted Erik "Mr. Bloodaxe" Wade

          @erik_kaars did a great breakdown of why this study had so many problems, and why it is nonsensical.https://twitter.com/erik_kaars/status/1198192838195986434 …

          Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin added,

          Erik "Mr. Bloodaxe" Wade @erik_kaars
          I *beg* your pardon? The Catholic Church reduced incest and cousin marriage, therefore "the West" became individualistic and promoted democracy?? I can't even explain how much this doesn't make sense. Oh wait, I *can* explain. I study medieval sex. 1/13 https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/11/how-early-christian-church-gave-birth-today-s-weird-europeans …
          Show this thread
          1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
          Show this thread
        26. Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin‏ @AdmiralHip 23 Nov 2019

          Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin Retweeted Jacob Ari Labendz (Dr. J.  🦁 🦢)

          Another great (and short) thread on the issues of this study.https://twitter.com/Jacob_Labendz/status/1193181278696284161 …

          Dr C. M. Bromstick 🧹, Dublin added,

          Jacob Ari Labendz (Dr. J.  🦁 🦢) @Jacob_Labendz
          This thread explains why this journalistic take on a ev-psych study (and, it seems the study too) gets much wrong. It’s also far too kind. Dressed up in science, this is simply a circular case for white supremacy almost indistinguishable from Kevin McDonald’s drivel. 1/4 https://twitter.com/mccormick_ted/status/1193028975951519745 …
          Show this thread
          1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
          Show this thread
        27. End of conversation

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