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4th_WaveNow's profile
4thWaveNow
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4thWaveNow
@4th_WaveNow

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4thWaveNow

@4th_WaveNow

Pediatric transition skeptics. 'Like samizdat for the sane & ideologically uncowed'. Free speech. Science. Head tweeter: Denise aka Marie (Founder)

The Wreck, Planet Earth
4thwavenow.com/about
Joined June 2015

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    1. 4thWaveNow‏ @4th_WaveNow 12 Dec 2017
      Replying to @_Leyanelle_ @DrDebraSoh

      It's an interesting debate. What do you make of this critique? Credits Fine with calling out weaknesses in the T debate, but calls her out for ignoring weaknesses in her own position.http://quillette.com/2017/03/21/cordelia-fines-testosterone-rex-a-review/ …

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    2. Leya  🟥 🟪 ⬜️ 🟩‏ @_Leyanelle_ 12 Dec 2017
      Replying to @4th_WaveNow @DrDebraSoh

      I'd be interested in her response. I'm not seeing anything that shows she's wrong at all though.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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    6. 4thWaveNow‏ @4th_WaveNow 12 Dec 2017
      Replying to @dzongsar @Nosci_fi @DrDebraSoh

      Yes. And quest for the truth shouldn't be hampered by ideology of any kind.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Leya  🟥 🟪 ⬜️ 🟩‏ @_Leyanelle_ 12 Dec 2017
      Replying to @4th_WaveNow @dzongsar and

      She has some kind of belief system at play there though, in the way she misrepresents the science. Even Fine's detractors acknowledge there's no conclusive scientific position that gender is innate.

      3 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
    8. 4thWaveNow‏ @4th_WaveNow 12 Dec 2017
      Replying to @_Leyanelle_ @dzongsar and

      The science being questioned is whether levels of T (pre- &/or post-natal) has an impact on typical sex/gender norms. There is an ideological position that hormones have nil impact, and that's what Soh (and a lot of replicated research) challenges. It's not about "innateness."

      3 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
    9. 4thWaveNow‏ @4th_WaveNow 12 Dec 2017
      Replying to @4th_WaveNow @dzongsar and

      One can have a nuanced position that testosterone is powerful and has an effect, without saying T levels are determinative/nurture is irrelevant, OR that population averages say anything about an individual.

      1 reply 1 retweet 2 likes
    10. Leya  🟥 🟪 ⬜️ 🟩‏ @_Leyanelle_ 12 Dec 2017
      Replying to @4th_WaveNow @dzongsar and

      But she says that gender is innate, and isn't a construct; this isn't a nuanced position.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4thWaveNow‏ @4th_WaveNow 12 Dec 2017
      Replying to @_Leyanelle_ @dzongsar and

      It's not just Soh. Melissa Hines & colleagues have decades of replicated research on the impact of prenatal T on childhood play behaviors, as well as a new (n=5000) study showing gender-atypical play (irrespective of parental approval) is correlated with later homosexuality.

      9:38 AM - 12 Dec 2017
      • 3 Likes
      • Ronald D. Potts ن isabelle tracy
      4 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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        2. Magdalen’s Spirit Will Never Die‏ @Yandes1917 12 Dec 2017
          Replying to @Nosci_fi @4th_WaveNow and

          No it means stop transing gays.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. End of conversation
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        2. 4thWaveNow‏ @4th_WaveNow 12 Dec 2017
          Replying to @4th_WaveNow @dzongsar and

          The evidence is what matters--not the messenger. Clearly humans are a product of both nature and nurture: neither blank slates (no other primate is), nor prisoners entrapped in biological determinism.

          2 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
        3. Leya  🟥 🟪 ⬜️ 🟩‏ @_Leyanelle_ 12 Dec 2017
          Replying to @4th_WaveNow @dzongsar and

          You say you reject ideology & yet you are yourself adopting a position that isn't where the science is. 'Blank slate' is a redundant term. No-one is saying sex differences don't exist, what Fine is making a case for is that the science backs up *gender* not being innate.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation
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        2. Leya  🟥 🟪 ⬜️ 🟩‏ @_Leyanelle_ 12 Dec 2017
          Replying to @4th_WaveNow @dzongsar and

          We were talking about Soh, hence my comments. But I wish you had actually read the link I gave you, like I read the ones you gave me, wherein Fine addresses this; in the work you highlight & other work carried out by Fine herself, she goes into other factors tht cld be at play.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. 4thWaveNow‏ @4th_WaveNow 12 Dec 2017
          Replying to @_Leyanelle_ @dzongsar and

          Have read Fine; have changed my views since reading more widely and on both "sides." Many factors are in play. We'll have to agree to disagree that the impact of T is negligible. And that's fine.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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